Panther Tires - Questions

[dkingston]

Lots of great info!

The reason that scaled-down 1:1 tires usually don't work in RC is that the weight isn't scale. We have found that out in racing. If an RC crawler weighed 1:10 of its counterparts we would be in business! Thats not to say that there isn't a ton of merit in the tread designs of the 1:1 tires.

Our initial thoughts were in the 5" area.

As for the Losi tire wearing fast, traditionally one of the trade-offs in making a softer, more supple tire is that it wears quickly. Panther has done incredible amounts of testing and earlier this year we made a substantial change to our "soft" compound and not it out lasts our medium soft and medium compounds! I am not taking anything away from Losi, they make incredible tires and have incredible compounds.

Our testing was based upon the average racer having to replace a set of race tires virtually every weekend. We weren't happy with that and I believe that our compounds give the best value and are superior in performance, IMHO.

As for the carcass of the tire, for crawling I am assuming that thinner is much better than thicker. But, there is such a thing as a carcass that is too thin. The sidewalls, as was mentioned, are another serious concern. If the carcass is too thin and the sidewall is too thick, the whole tread-area of the carcass will collapse under side pressure. Maybe that would be a good thing? Testing will prove that out. I would imagine that there will be testing with some "gussets" in the radius of the sidewall. How much will be determined by testing.

I would be interested in hearing some opinions as to the advantages/disadvantages to a tire that has more "pins" than "geometric patterns". What I mean is the difference between a tire like our Geko and the Losi Zombie-Maxx.

 

[red jim]

I often wondered about foam,I used to love 1/8th buggies and you could get foams that were hard in the middle and soft on the outsides,I find myself wondering why there aren't foams like that for crawlin?If you are looking for testers next year lemme know,I would be more than happy to do it for you"thumbsup"

 

[dkingston]

single, two stage molded, special die cut foams are all a possibility!

Thanks for the offer to test, I will probably soliciting for this when we get closer to that stage.

Another issue that I have not seen discussed on the forums is; tire balancing. Is this an issue? It would seem to me that having tires that are completely in balance would be a huge benefit.

 

[Rockcrawler]

Yes, I stated earlier that I like the looks of the Geko's. The zombies look great too. Yes, the 5" area I think would be great. When I get in a bind or have trouble getting traction, I want the side wall to fold over, it will actually lift the truck up and down a little. ;-)

Lots of great info!

The reason that scaled-down 1:1 tires usually don't work in RC is that the weight isn't scale. We have found that out in racing. If an RC crawler weighed 1:10 of its counterparts we would be in business! Thats not to say that there isn't a ton of merit in the tread designs of the 1:1 tires.

Our initial thoughts were in the 5" area.

As for the Losi tire wearing fast, traditionally one of the trade-offs in making a softer, more supple tire is that it wears quickly. Panther has done incredible amounts of testing and earlier this year we made a substantial change to our "soft" compound and not it out lasts our medium soft and medium compounds! I am not taking anything away from Losi, they make incredible tires and have incredible compounds.

Our testing was based upon the average racer having to replace a set of race tires virtually every weekend. We weren't happy with that and I believe that our compounds give the best value and are superior in performance, IMHO.

As for the carcass of the tire, for crawling I am assuming that thinner is much better than thicker. But, there is such a thing as a carcass that is too thin. The sidewalls, as was mentioned, are another serious concern. If the carcass is too thin and the sidewall is too thick, the whole tread-area of the carcass will collapse under side pressure. Maybe that would be a good thing? Testing will prove that out. I would imagine that there will be testing with some "gussets" in the radius of the sidewall. How much will be determined by testing.

I would be interested in hearing some opinions as to the advantages/disadvantages to a tire that has more "pins" than "geometric patterns". What I mean is the difference between a tire like our Geko and the Losi Zombie-Maxx.

 

[Rockcrawler]

Also, I think that the tread needs to come down the sidewall a little. I know I use the sidewall of the tire to traction on rocks.....especially when I am on my side.:lol:

 

[newbe]

I'm glad to see panther getting in this. I have to say they make awesome tires. I use a set of plow boy2 tires and they are really good tires and seem to grip almost anything. Just wish the had some sidewall lugs of some sort. I also use boas and pythongs. Cant wait to see what you come up with. Looking for 40 series

 

[derwood21]

single, two stage molded, special die cut foams are all a possibility!

Thanks for the offer to test, I will probably soliciting for this when we get closer to that stage.

Another issue that I have not seen discussed on the forums is; tire balancing. Is this an issue? It would seem to me that having tires that are completely in balance would be a huge benefit.

Its not much of a issue because theres not much speed involved. Most people run some king of weights in their tires so the are going to be unbalanced from that anyway.

 

[danielk]

Are two-stage compounds possible for the tires themselves? A soft compound for the carcass and firmer compound for the treads themselves would help wear and might also help the performace of the tire itself. I always knew panther would get into the crawling scene sooner or later. Panther's compounds are super nice.

 

[slobin3d]

balancing tires wouldn't really make much difference, the tires even at full throttle don't spin fast enough to make them wobble and throw the truck around.

You want you're sidewalls stiff enough that a 4~5lbs 2.2 can sit on a steep side hill without rolling under but still crumple and fold when put on a sharp ledge, maybe a ribbed sidewall like proline puts on their bow tie buggy tires.

Maybe thats something that can be best done with foams. I would like to try foams that are stiff like Geo foams on the outside, maybe only 1/8, 3/16 thick on either side and super soft in the center, and dome shaped over the top if that makes sense. "thumbsup"

 

[Filibuster]

The reason why 5" tires have a better records of winning comps IMO is because nobody has come with a decent 5.25" or 5.5" tire so far : Rock Lizards, All-T's, Red Rock are all nice size tires, but lack performance, or not really Crawler tires...

Then Proline Moab or M2K (M3 compound) or Rock claws have very good tread and compound and are comps proven, but fall short in height for my needs.

I would love to have a 5.25" or 5.5" tall and 2.25" wide tire for beadlock use, specific for crawling on smooth (not abrasive) rocks. "thumbsup"

Anyway thanks for asking for our input. This is how you will be making better and better products : listening to your customers...;-)

 

[Racer4Life]

A little larger diameter than the Losi Claws would be good. 3/8 to 1/2 taller. It would be nice to have the much larger diameter, but it has it disadvantages.

A thin style tread like the second photo you posted is best for the majority of applications. You need something that will conform and grip.

I think a two stage foam would be interested to try, it may have been done. Can the foams be precut in different shapes? Is it possible to get the memory foam for these?

I would also like to say...don't worry about making them look like a real 1.1 tire. The guys running these in comps could care less what the looks are like, as long as they hook. Also, don't worry about the longevity to much. The softer you get the less time you will get to run them. Just like all other forms of competitive RC.

Thanks for jumping into the mix, and asking for idea's on how to make the best tire. "thumbsup"

Tom

 

[microgoat]

Lots of great info!

The reason that scaled-down 1:1 tires usually don't work in RC is that the weight isn't scale. We have found that out in racing. If an RC crawler weighed 1:10 of its counterparts we would be in business! Thats not to say that there isn't a ton of merit in the tread designs of the 1:1 tires.

Our initial thoughts were in the 5" area.

Our testing was based upon the average racer having to replace a set of race tires virtually every weekend. We weren't happy with that and I believe that our compounds give the best value and are superior in performance, IMHO.

As for the carcass of the tire, for crawling I am assuming that thinner is much better than thicker. But, there is such a thing as a carcass that is too thin. The sidewalls, as was mentioned, are another serious concern. If the carcass is too thin and the sidewall is too thick, the whole tread-area of the carcass will collapse under side pressure. Maybe that would be a good thing? Testing will prove that out. I would imagine that there will be testing with some "gussets" in the radius of the sidewall. How much will be determined by testing.

I would be interested in hearing some opinions as to the advantages/disadvantages to a tire that has more "pins" than "geometric patterns". What I mean is the difference between a tire like our Geko and the Losi Zombie-Maxx.

Remember, weight is a cubic function. A 1/10 scale crawler should weigh 1/1000 of the 1:1.

I'd looks at 5.25 diameter. Just a wee bit mo'bigger than the M2K's, but not enormous. Don't worry about wear. These guys (myself included) buy every new tire that comes out, just for the experience. If they wear out, we'll buy another set if they were good. If they don't wear out it's because they sucked so bad we never drove 'em.

Sidewalls are tricky. You want them thin/flexible enough to grip, but not so floppy that the rig falls over on sidehills. We usually tune that with foams, and it's a lot easier to stiffen up a sidewall than to make it softer. If you want to be really trick, mold the sidewall thinner near the tread, and thicker near the bead so it stands up but still conforms. 3/8 inch of floppy sidewall should be enough; the rest should be firm.

single, two stage molded, special die cut foams are all a possibility!

Another issue that I have not seen discussed on the forums is; tire balancing. Is this an issue? It would seem to me that having tires that are completely in balance would be a huge benefit.

Ship them with basic cheesy white foams. No two rigs are the same, so everyone here has a different foam setup. You could make a few bucks selling the uber-foams as a hop-up.

The reason why 5" tires have a better records of winning comps IMO is because nobody has come with a decent 5.25" or 5.5" tire so far : Rock Lizards, All-T's, Red Rock are all nice size tires, but lack performance, or not really Crawler tires...

Then Proline Moab or M2K (M3 compound) or Rock claws have very good tread and compound and are comps proven, but fall short in height for my needs.

I would love to have a 5.25" or 5.5" tall and 2.25" wide tire for beadlock use, specific for crawling on smooth (not abrasive) rocks. "thumbsup"

Anyway thanks for asking for our input. This is how you will be making better and better products : listening to your customers...;-)

The M2K isn't a crawler tire, either. It's a monster-truck tire that happens to work well. The Moab is crawler-specific, but still gets owned by M2K's regularly. The compound is the same, so the chevron tread obviously works. Scale guys like me don't like 'em because they look too agricultural, but you can't argue with how they work.

Losi's Rock Claws, while the design is crawler-specific, are made from their "blue" dirt-track compound. Not specially formulated, it just happens to work.

There is such a thing as too much grip. On a steep climb, weight transfer will give the rear wheels enough traction to flip the rig over while the fronts are fighting for purchase. A little slip is a good thing here.

Your Geko looks like it could work. Many of us use PL Badlands tread sections glued onto another carcass, and have good luck with them.

Sidewall lugs should be there, but not overly huge. The Moabs and Lizards have good useful side lugs, but they don't look as butch as some of the scale tires from RC4WD.

Width: 1.25 across the tread. maybe 1.38, but any wider and we'll get out the scissors.

Given how different tires work in different areas, I'd think about releasing at least two different tires: One like a 5.25 Geko, one like the M2K. A couple different compounds wouldn't hurt, either. Depends on how deep your commitment is. 40-series, Maxx and Clod sizes should follow if you want total coverage. And some 1.9 scale tires, too 8)

Glad to have another player in the crawler sandbox "thumbsup" Can't wait to see what you come up with.

 

[Reflection]

I would be interested in hearing some opinions as to the advantages/disadvantages to a tire that has more "pins" than "geometric patterns". What I mean is the difference between a tire like our Geko and the Losi Zombie-Maxx.

The problem I see with allot of tires are the treads are to close together. That creates a tire that will load up and not clean out. IMHO,thats one reason a Masher will perform well in many terrains.

Pin type tires have been home brewed by me and many others. They seem to offer a great deal of traction.

There are allot of areas such as the south and pacific northwest that have to deal with mud,moss,slick limestone and water crossings at nearly ANY comp site or get together. Building a tire better suited for this will be a HUGE plus for allot of guys. I know theres a few spots on my comp site here at home that are unpassable with any tire out right now. I'd like to see a tire made that will climb these areas."thumbsup"

Are two-stage compounds possible for the tires themselves? A soft compound for the carcass and firmer compound for the treads themselves would help wear and might also help the performace of the tire itself.

IMHO,the tread is where you need the softer compound. Thats where you want to get traction:lol:

 

[microgoat]

I'd buy a set of moss tires "thumbsup"

 

[danielk]

flip my idea. i thought of it backwards. haha

 

[SnoopMaxx]

Welcome Panther "thumbsup"

i´d like to see a 2.2 tire in 4.75" to 5.25" high and 2" wide
with a thread similar to the proline badlands with a good side wall as well

"thumbsup"

 

[Filibuster]

I'd buy a set of moss tires "thumbsup"

X2 "thumbsup"

 

[hairyguy4]

just my 2 cents"thumbsup" i would say these would be awsome tires"thumbsup"
the simex extreme trekkers

nice large open lugs combined with a chunky side wall and smaller treads down the centre"thumbsup"

 

[sloppy]

did someone say moss tire's sign me up. good to see panther joining up.
like many have said the mashers really prove themself on many more terrains then any other tire made I would like a little taller. your gecko's look like the could be great I would like to see a little deaper tread on the tire myself and some more spacing to help with clean out. and I would like to see a tire that still works when wet. right now the masher is the only tire that doesnt just suck once you hit mud or water. as far as wear goes if it works I will wear them out I know I keep burning threw masher's. and for foams i would just stick plain old cheap white's in there. guy's tune there foams to there rig's some dont even run foams if the beadlocks seal up well. I would sell upgrade foams seperate. "thumbsup"

 

[sloppy]

take out everyother lug down the middle and it might work right now that would clog somthin terrible. I like the look but i dont know if it would really work for a 2.2

just my 2 cents"thumbsup" i would say these would be awsome tires"thumbsup"
the simex extreme trekkers

nice large open lugs combined with a chunky side wall and smaller treads down the centre"thumbsup"