Natedog's Vaterra ASCENDER

[Natedog]

Hi Cabron,
I will measure that stuff and post back here later.

 

[Natedog]

Skid is about 60mm wide. Widest part of skid that fits inside the frame rails channels is about 66.5-67mm wide.

Diff input about 12-15mm lower than tranny output at full suspension compression, kinda hard to get accurate with this measurement.

Diff input about 35mm lower than tranny output at full extension (droop).

Note: my shocks are internal limited 9mm (3/8").

 

[cabron]

at rest measure diff input shaft from ground and the same for tranny output.
the difference from those two measurements is what I want.
sorry, I had forgotten to say at rest. but what you did measure is also useful, now that I think
about it. min and max ride height, you gave me min.

on another note, I acquired an axial tranny by accident. comparing them side by side stock
including inside by inside, the vaterra seems much more ....
we shall see

thanks nate

 

[Natedog]

As requested, and I updated the post above with this info.
Diff input about 12-15mm lower than tranny output at full suspension compression, kinda hard to get accurate with this measurement.

Diff input about 35mm lower than tranny output at full extension (droop).

Note: my shocks are internal limited 9mm (3/8").

Yes, I've owned both and the Vaterra tranny is sooo much more than even the new SCX10 II tranny, stronger steel gears, compact size, low CG. "thumbsup"

 

[cabron]

haha thanks nate

got enough info to get a good start in setting up a chassis/skidplate. have to keep reminding myself
this is not a moa crawler. made and bolted on 2 aluminum servo mounts, cut threads on 8 pieces of 3/16 in. rod,
need to bend the lower 4 links. still trying to decide on how to make the side rails. and need to find 4 shocks,
I have 105mm and 117mm sets but both seem too long.

so using inverse mesican computations, assuming you are using 2.2 wheels and tires, the bottom of the
skidplate is at 3 inches give or take a few mms at rest.
and it seems you have 3/4 in of suspension travel which seems to indicate that you can lift one wheel about
3 inches before the other wheel comes up? ( am a little unclear on droop setups, I have seen conflicting explanations )

am thinking I should have tried ascender axles instead of the ar60s.

thanks again, ill keep looking in here to see what you are up to.

 

[Natedog]

Ill take a ride height bottom of skidplate measurement for you to help with your reverse math lol.

Im not running droop setup, I meant at full suspension down travel.

 

[bigchimp]

Ill take a ride height bottom of skidplate measurement for you to help with your reverse math lol.

Im not running droop setup, I meant at full suspension down travel.

Nate wondering if you can help me with what I see as a couple of issues.

1. I bought an ascender cantilever mount and a grundish customs cantilever kit, but the installation was very clunky and the travel seems short. Should the arms from the shocks be longer?

2. The driveshafts are barely connected - I'm running GCM front motor mount, twin hammers 2 speed tranny, and GCM rear truss...shocks up front are 90mm per GCM instructions, and I like the ride height but I feel like these MIP shafts aren't long enough. I can buy another rear long c-drive hub for the front and probably solve the flimsy connect there, but the rear already has the long hub and is still super flimsy.

I guess my questions are is the seemingly flimsy driveshaft connect ok? What can be done about the poor rear travel and clunky movement?

Thanks in advance - all this stuff was done so I could put a full interior in with flat floor.


avgatbest

 

[CODYBOY]

Nate wondering if you can help me with what I see as a couple of issues.

1. I bought an ascender cantilever mount and a grundish customs cantilever kit, but the installation was very clunky and the travel seems short. Should the arms from the shocks be longer?

2. The driveshafts are barely connected - I'm running GCM front motor mount, twin hammers 2 speed tranny, and GCM rear truss...shocks up front are 90mm per GCM instructions, and I like the ride height but I feel like these MIP shafts aren't long enough. I can buy another rear long c-drive hub for the front and probably solve the flimsy connect there, but the rear already has the long hub and is still super flimsy.

I guess my questions are is the seemingly flimsy driveshaft connect ok? What can be done about the poor rear travel and clunky movement?

Thanks in advance - all this stuff was done so I could put a full interior in with flat floor.


avgatbest

I'm not Nate, but will give you my 2 cents.
A Cantilever set up doesn't require as much shock travel to reach the same length of axle travel as a upright shock system, the geometry is totally different.
Clunky, ??? It looks like you are using fuel line tubing to space your rear mount for the shock??? That rear mount for the shocks needs to be pretty solid, or you will loose some travel to a side to side movement instead of up and down. Is that the clunky you were talking about. I would say you need solid spacers back there."thumbsup"

For the MIP shafts, if you have more than 1/4" engagement you should be OK. I put a longer out drive shaft in my GCM transfer case so my MIP shafts had better engagement.
Hope that helps you out a little!"thumbsup"
Ernie,

 

[bigchimp]

I'm not Nate, but will give you my 2 cents.

A Cantilever set up doesn't require as much shock travel to reach the same length of axle travel as a upright shock system, the geometry is totally different.

Clunky, ??? It looks like you are using fuel line tubing to space your rear mount for the shock??? That rear mount for the shocks needs to be pretty solid, or you will loose some travel to a side to side movement instead of up and down. Is that the clunky you were talking about. I would say you need solid spacers back there."thumbsup"



For the MIP shafts, if you have more than 1/4" engagement you should be OK. I put a longer out drive shaft in my GCM transfer case so my MIP shafts had better engagement.

Hope that helps you out a little!"thumbsup"

Ernie,

I'll be honest I'm not sure I'm just using the stuff included in the kit - it's a tiny little piece of thin plastic tubing so that the shock can slide left to right a bit I assume? By clunky I mean the travel isn't smooth at all and the little progressive arm keeps rubbing up against the side of the mount. I expected a smooth travel the way the regular shocks work but maybe it was wishful thinking and a sacrifice I need to live with in return for a flat rear to put an interior in.

What spacers would you recommend?

Also I don't know how much engagement I have, but that idea seems good - can you tell me which shafts you used to achieve that?

I appreciate your help by the way.

avgatbest

 

[CODYBOY]

I'll be honest I'm not sure I'm just using the stuff included in the kit - it's a tiny little piece of thin plastic tubing so that the shock can slide left to right a bit I assume? By clunky I mean the travel isn't smooth at all and the little progressive arm keeps rubbing up against the side of the mount. I expected a smooth travel the way the regular shocks work but maybe it was wishful thinking and a sacrifice I need to live with in return for a flat rear to put an interior in.

What spacers would you recommend?

Also I don't know how much engagement I have, but that idea seems good - can you tell me which shafts you used to achieve that?

I appreciate your help by the way.

avgatbest

Is it the grey arms rubbing against the chassis? Maybe add a washer or two in between them. The shaft in the transfer case was something I had in my parts bin. I was thinking axial or ascender link spacers. ( I made mine out of 3/16" SS tubing and use a brake line tubing cutter.) "thumbsup"
Your welcome!
Ernie,

 

[bigchimp]

Is it the grey arms rubbing against the chassis? Maybe add a washer or two in between them. The shaft in the transfer case was something I had in my parts bin. I was thinking axial or ascender link spacers. ( I made mine out of 3/16" SS tubing and use a brake line tubing cutter.) "thumbsup"

Your welcome!

Ernie,

Yeah the grey arm is rubbing against it despite being a spacer between the chassis and the arm. It's actually rubbing up against the shapeways ascender cantilever mount I'm using in lieu of the one that came with the kit.

So I'm confused about the out shafts - you're saying all you did was add some spacers? I have ascender link spacers considering I had to remove them to use the rear truss from GCM anyway?

It seems like I need a longer arm from the mount to the axle, but I could be wrong...I've extended mine as long as they get and if you look closely at the pictures I think they need another 1/8 of an inch to line up identical to the front setup.

What do you think?


avgatbest

 

[CODYBOY]

Yeah the grey arm is rubbing against it despite being a spacer between the chassis and the arm. It's actually rubbing up against the shapeways ascender cantilever mount I'm using in lieu of the one that came with the kit.

So I'm confused about the out shafts - you're saying all you did was add some spacers? I have ascender link spacers considering I had to remove them to use the rear truss from GCM anyway?

It seems like I need a longer arm from the mount to the axle, but I could be wrong...I've extended mine as long as they get and if you look closely at the pictures I think they need another 1/8 of an inch to line up identical to the front setup.

What do you think?


avgatbest

I just want to make sure we are talking apples and apples here. The spacers were a suggestion to used on the rear part of the shock mount, not the transfer case. You would need a 4.93mm hardened shaft for the transfer case. Apples and Apples???"thumbsup"
Ernie,

Sorry Nate, didn't mean to hijack your thread!!!

 

[bigchimp]

I just want to make sure we are talking apples and apples here. The spacers were a suggestion to used on the rear part of the shock mount, not the transfer case. You would need a 4.93mm hardened shaft for the transfer case. Apples and Apples???"thumbsup"
Ernie,

Sorry Nate, didn't mean to hijack your thread!!!

Understand about the shock mount.

Still unclear on what I need to buy for transfer case - diameter of 4.93 but what length would be optimal? And we're just talking about the input shaft right?


avgatbest

 

[Natedog]

Bigchimp, looking at your rear cantilever laydown setup, the geometry looks wrong. The shocks seem a little too long, the cantilever arms are mounted at least 1/2" too far forward causing awkward link angle to the axle. The shocks need to be mounted parallel to the frame rails so that they get a smooth even stroke as the suspension moves, cantilver rocker ratio should be lower too (shorter arm), upper shock mount needs to be bushed so that it doesn't shift sided to side, not just a piece of fuel line. All of this together will definitely cause the clunkiness and non-smooth supsension that you describe. HTH

New2rocks has a great Ascender Blazer build thread here, where he used the GCM rear kit for an SCX10 and it works very well.
http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/vate...big-tiny-truck-built-little-little-hands.html

Ernie, thanks for helping. 8)

 

[bigchimp]

Bigchimp, looking at your rear cantilever laydown setup, the geometry looks wrong. The shocks seem a little too long, the cantilever arms are mounted at least 1/2" too far forward causing awkward link angle to the axle. The shocks need to be mounted parallel to the frame rails so that they get a smooth even stroke as the suspension moves, cantilver rocker ratio should be lower too (shorter arm), upper shock mount needs to be bushed so that it doesn't shift sided to side, not just a piece of fuel line. All of this together will definitely cause the clunkiness and non-smooth supsension that you describe. HTH

New2rocks has a great Ascender Blazer build thread here, where he used the GCM rear kit for an SCX10 and it works very well.
http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/vate...big-tiny-truck-built-little-little-hands.html

Ernie, thanks for helping. 8)

I've read that thread - I'll be honest this is my first build but I bought the cantilever kit and the ascender mount kit thinking all I needed to do was bolt it up. I don't know how I can move the mount back any more to achieve the proper angle - I agree it looks screwy, but I'm not sure I did anything wrong unless using the ascender mount from shapeways was a bad idea.


avgatbest

 

[Natedog]

OK, good. Is there another rocker mounting hole in those Shapeways parts or just one hole? Can you drill a new hole to get better angles?

 

[Natedog]

Scouting crawl spots in the high Sierras.



It's a leisurely 7 mile hike in with plenty of swimming to cool off. "thumbsup"

 

[Natedog]

I've read that thread - I'll be honest this is my first build but I bought the cantilever kit and the ascender mount kit thinking all I needed to do was bolt it up. I don't know how I can move the mount back any more to achieve the proper angle - I agree it looks screwy, but I'm not sure I did anything wrong unless using the ascender mount from shapeways was a bad idea.

Assume you're using these cantilever shock mounts for the Ascender?

Ascender rear cantilever
by Lampje74
Ascender rear cantilever (5XH7NMNNN) by Lampje74

Looks like the cantilever rocker mount is too far forward and not really any way to mod them to get it in the right spot, unless you slide the whole mount rearward, drill couple new mounting holes in it and screw it back onto the frame rail. Worth a try since you already have them, otherwise you could use aluminum or delrin and cut, file and drill your own pair. "thumbsup"

EDIT: OK looked closer and compared between Shapeways pics and yours, looks like you have the top of the shock in the wrong hole, which causes it to angle out away from the frame rail. Also they didn't supply the rockers? Looks like you need shorter (lower ratio) rockers and it may work out ok after all. Got a good pic with the shock not mounted so that we can see more clearly?

 

[bigchimp]

Assume you're using these cantilever shock mounts for the Ascender?

Ascender rear cantilever
by Lampje74
Ascender rear cantilever (5XH7NMNNN) by Lampje74

Looks like the cantilever rocker mount is too far forward and not really any way to mod them to get it in the right spot, unless you slide the whole mount rearward, drill couple new mounting holes in it and screw it back onto the frame rail. Worth a try since you already have them, otherwise you could use aluminum or delrin and cut, file and drill your own pair. "thumbsup"

EDIT: OK looked closer and compared between Shapeways pics and yours, looks like you have the top of the shock in the wrong hole, which causes it to angle out away from the frame rail. Also they didn't supply the rockers? Looks like you need shorter (lower ratio) rockers and it may work out ok after all. Got a good pic with the shock not mounted so that we can see more clearly?

Is this better? I flipped the shocks after looking at the pic but the angle still looked screwy to me...

avgatbest

 

[Natedog]

Thanks, you're using the hole closest to the front to mount the top of the shocks? That is the upper shock mount needs to com forward so that you can get the shock in close and parallel to the frame.
They used steel Traxxas link mount ball as upper shock mount in Shapeways pics. Hard to tell, but looks like they maybe spaced rocker mount out from frame and mount a little, this would also help shock alignment. Were there any instructions included with the parts?

Definitely need shorter rockers.