Ford's future plans in North America

[hpiguy]

There is a difference between wagon and hatchback due to size. Wagons are usually longer and more have more room.

Wagon

Hatchback

Those are both wagon shaped to me. Hatchbacks didn't resemble wagons at all back in the day. The difference being hatches had an agressive sloping rear, rather than the mostly vertical rear of a wagon. Any hatch I can think of now has the almost vertical rear of what used to be a wagon. Just more modern feel good words to keep people from feeling like they're driving a wagon I suppose. :lmao:

 

[tuanies]

Those are both wagon shaped to me. Hatchbacks didn't resemble wagons at all back in the day. The difference being hatches had an agressive sloping rear, rather than the mostly vertical rear of a wagon. Any hatch I can think of now has the almost vertical rear of what used to be a wagon. Just more modern feel good words to keep people from feeling like they're driving a wagon I suppose. :lmao:

I'd honestly prefer the wagon variant any day - the sloped roof takes out quite a bit of practicality.

 

[BigSki]

@ jato- I do agree that the term "small" truck isn't relative anymore, they're not the size of the S10/Rangers of years gone by. I looked at a Colorado and thought that it was a decent size, I just didn't see where the quality/fit/finish/material spec of the truck was anywhere near that of a new Taco although the price was right there w/ the Toyota.

 

[OSRC]

I have a 99 Miata in the garage as well...The Miata 5 speed is the best manual transmission I have ever driven (I hear the s2000's have great shifting trannies too) and it has 270K miles on it. It is one of the last throttle by cable vehicles at a 1999 model.

Mine is a '99 as well, though with 72k on it. Shifter/clutch is a dream. My 6 is close though, matching throttle on downshifts is easier actually than on the Miata.

But your post highlights exactly why automakers discontinued the vehicles you want - you buy them used. Automakers don't make money on used cars, so why should they cater to those that aren't their direct customers?

Not sure where you got that - the Mazda5 would be new...the Frontier/Xterra are going out of production, so by the time I get around to it, I'll have to be looking at the used market. I do have a Tahoe/Expedition on my list, but no way I can afford new. No way in hell.

 

[hpiguy]

I'd honestly prefer the wagon variant any day - the sloped roof takes out quite a bit of practicality.

Depends on the car for me I guess. Some can pull off a flat boxy roofline and some can't. I don't really haul tall stuff, but the length of the cargo area with my rear seats folded comes in damn handy, but for work and play. I can haul my RC planes, guns, shooting bench, camping gear, work gear, etc.

Also, high HP FWD cars suck IMO, I've owned two turbo FWD cars. Torque steer is terrible, they're death traps in heavy rain, and the handling balance is all wrong. RWD for a toy for me, all day long, and AWD for a toy you can drive daily year round.

 

[durok]

I'd honestly prefer the wagon variant any day - the sloped roof takes out quite a bit of practicality.

Last week I went out on a FAST drive on a fantastic twisty road as a passenger in my friend's DIY-turbo'd Miata Black & Tan edition, loud and FAST for a Miata, heck - it was pretty damn fast period. I've driven a Miata (stock, first-gen) as fast as I dared on back roads, they are a blast. Long ago, though. Was my long-term girlfriend's car...

My 5-door hatch - frankly, it's a wagon - heck, it's practically a micro-van!

(2nd pic shows when things were near-perfect, car was brand new - as it was in first pic, my Suzuki SV650 was running like a top, I had a carport and a much nicer apartment)

 

[skellyo]

Also, high HP FWD cars suck IMO, I've owned two turbo FWD cars. Torque steer is terrible, they're death traps in heavy rain, and the handling balance is all wrong.

100% agreed. It makes me laugh every time I see a FWD vehicle with a "Sport" version.

 

[tuanies]

Not sure where you got that - the Mazda5 would be new...the Frontier/Xterra are going out of production, so by the time I get around to it, I'll have to be looking at the used market. I do have a Tahoe/Expedition on my list, but no way I can afford new. No way in hell.

The Mazda5's final model year in the US was 2015 and that year is automatic only. 2014 was the final year for the manual Mazda5, I know because I bought one knowing it'd be the final time I'd be able to buy a manual minivan.

The Xterra was discontinued after the 2015 model year as well. The Frontier still soldiers along, pretty much the same car since it came out in 2004. We still haven't gotten the 3rd gen Navara that the rest of the world got in 2014.

 

[OSRC]

Ah, I meant CX5... now I get it.

 

[MattySlimz1987]

lol Jato I'm not sure to be offended or not that i fall into the category of "stick lover" lol

but all the cars on that list... only a handful are RWD. even less of those have 4 doors.
all the ones i already mentioned. but i missed one.
the Genesis G70?! dafug is that?!
oh, ok not bad at $32k. but only 250hp on a turbo 4? ehhhh...
i will "stick" with the infiniti G37 sedan. (is Genesis the reason infiniti renamed their G line to Q? seniority means nothing nowadays...?)

yes, the ranger is supposedly coming back, with the bronco. supposedly.
and i took it as the Colorado replaced the S-10.

*jato yes 3/4 size is odd. when my mom was looking for a truck back in 99ish, i showed her the Dakota. it was too big. or... too small. it was both somehow. she ended up with a 1st gen Tacoma.

Have you considered the Chevrolet SS? Though it’s been discontinued and kinda a unicorn vehicle, it cuts loose with 415 unicorns, 4-door, 6-speed. The comparable vehicle for testing at the time, around 2015, was a 15 year old BMW M5 that’s of about the same size. I do believe they were made in Australia and imported here (kinda like the mid-aughts GTO) from Holden (the company that still makes fast UTEs!. Its 6.2 LS3 certainly wouldn’t mind some power adders and it’s driving modes have an exhaust dump! I still think America NEEDS UTE’s!

The RWD beast is certainly outta my payment range (even used!) though it sounds like what every big family dad as yourself yearns for. Of course you could have a Charger but than getting one in a stick besides a Hellcat is few and far between, besides you DO want to be DIFFERENT don’t you? I do see quite a few Chargers in my area. An SS? I have a better chance of seeing a GT-R screaming down the beltway.

I’ll stick with my daily 4 banger Accord with its lovely 25+ mpg while wifey still enjoys her XJ, but she too wants a Pilot like so many others better half’s here do it sounds like. But why!? It’s still going to be bad on gas and it’s transaxle awd is worthless besides maybe the occasional snow. As far as Fords situation/plan goes, good on them, it’s all about the money anyway right? The new RS Focus I hear is having major engine issues where it’s going through headgaskets like hot cakes due to a cooling design flaw behind the cylinder walls. "thumbsup"

 

[hpiguy]

All this talk has made me think back on my life, and I've come to the conclusion that for those that want a compact, sporty car, the late 80's early 90's were the best time to be a car person. We were too young to have muscle cars, that ship had sailed, but every manufacturer pretty much had a sporty version of their every day car, that was attainable by pretty much anybody.

Ford

Escort GT
Probe GT
Mustang GT

Chevrolet

Cavailier Z24 2.8l
Beretta GTZ 2.8l
Cyclone/Typhoon
Corvette

Dodge

Shadow turbo
Stealth
Daytona
Daktoa RT 2wd
Eagle Talon TSi AWD Turbo
Viper

Toyota

Celica GTS all trac turbo
MR2 turbo
Supra

Mitsubishi

Eclipse AWD turbo
3000GT
Galant VR4 AWD turbo

Subaru

SVX
Impreza

Mazda

RX7
Miata
MX6 turbo

Nissan

240sx
300zx
Maxima

While I'm not a fan of high HP FWD cars, it pangs me that there really aren't any options out there anymore. I mean hell, look at that list, granted it's a vast mix of FWD, RWD and various price points; but my point is everyone had something to choose from that was somewhat sporty and could be had in a manual transmission. And some of those cars were a good bit quicker than you'd think, like the Z24 Cavaliers. I'll never forget riding in one in high school for the first time, and my buddy barking 4th gear on dry pavement going straight ahead. It handled weird, but that car was quick, and had enough power to be fun and was reasonably priced. So even though I won't be lining up for a Focus ST, I give Ford a ton of credit for still offering us something at least. Hell, I went looking and it seems Dodge doesn't even make a small car anymore, Chevy makes nothing sporty at all unless it's a Camaro with a turbo 4 banger in a huge heavy car. Really? Mazda killed off the RX series, and kept the Miata, and having owned two RX7s, I'm still scratching me head over that one. I know what killed off some of these cars at the end of the day, but we didn't get anything to replace them though, and that sucks.

You're only real choices these days also start at around $30k, and go way up from there. An STI is now a $40k + car, and there's now way in hell I'd pay that for one. Even the BRZ is over $30k nicely equipped, and that's retarded, there's isn't $30k worth of car there, I don't care how great it is on a twisty backroad. Same with the Miata, the hardtop starts at $32k, WTF?

I get the feeling it's like anything hobby/leisure related. They know it's not a car that you need, that's more than likely just going to be a weekend toy for many, so they price it accordingly. Other than that, I have no idea.

And yes, the early Focus RS had issues, that I've read have been resolved as of now. That being said, around here the RS was going for $10k over MSRP, which made it an almost $50k car. Hell no.

 

[JatoTheRipper]

Also, high HP FWD cars suck IMO, I've owned two turbo FWD cars. Torque steer is terrible, they're death traps in heavy rain, and the handling balance is all wrong. RWD for a toy for me, all day long, and AWD for a toy you can drive daily year round.

Hell yes! Ricers crack me up with their hopped up Civics and the other junk like that. FWD sucks for going fast, period.


Back to what I said earlier about Dodge sucking. It looks like they are trying to be Tesla now.

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/30/2019-ram-1500-pickup-production-problems/
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2019-ram-1500-pickup-is-in-its-own-production-hell/

 

[CM9000]

High hp fwd cars only suck cause you might be driving them wrong, or you didnt setup the car.

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[JatoTheRipper]

High hp fwd cars only suck cause you might be driving them wrong, or you didnt setup the car.

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No, FWD cars suck because of physics. I'll give you two quick reasons.

1. At launch the weight transfer to the rear unloads the front, driving tires.
2. The driving tires also have the chore of steering. The tires are easily overloaded while the rear tires are dragged behind.

It's a horrible design for performance.

 

[tuanies]

No, FWD cars suck because of physics. I'll give you two quick reasons.

1. At launch the weight transfer to the rear unloads the front, driving tires.
2. The driving tires also have the chore of steering. The tires are easily overloaded while the rear tires are dragged behind.

It's a horrible design for performance.

Why would launch be important in a FWD car? They're not designed as straight-line machines. Go give the Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Mini Cooper, Civic Type R, any Mazda and find some windy roads and have a blast.

The Fiesta ST and Mini Cooper handle like go karts on rails. Also good tires make a huge difference.

I've driven a ton of fast cars from base 3-cylinder Turbo Fiestas to McLarens and still enjoy driving the hell out of hot hatches. They all drive differently but you can definitely have fun.

 

[JatoTheRipper]

Why would launch be important in a FWD car? They're not designed as straight-line machines. Go give the Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Mini Cooper, Civic Type R, any Mazda and find some windy roads and have a blast.

The Fiesta ST and Mini Cooper handle like go karts on rails. Also good tires make a huge difference.

I've driven a ton of fast cars from base 3-cylinder Turbo Fiestas to McLarens and still enjoy driving the hell out of hot hatches. They all drive differently but you can definitely have fun.

You can't be serious.

Launch is important in any race especially drag races and stop light races.

 

[BigSki]

My 5-door hatch - frankly, it's a wagon - heck, it's practically a micro-van!

That's how I used to describe my AWD CRV- a mini-minivan !:mrgreen:

 

[CM9000]

And so why are 500hp na k series hondas going sub 10 sec in the 1/4? FWD cars dont suck. You just might suck at driving them.

Sure those all motor k series might need a rebuild after 6 days of thrashing.

But you can build a reliable FWD sports car.

Havent you heard of FF battle?



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[Shinchu]

FF cars are great for circuit.
i learned basic car handling dynamics in my 89 civic hatch (DX and later recipient of a DOHC ZC swap). i would blast up canyons in that all night and be happier than a pig in mud.

until i bought my first RWD (91 240sx SE super HICAS edition). the difference was night and day. sure, FF can be quick, but its never going to be the true experience of RWD. not in circuit, not in drag, not anywhere.

yes, FF can go fast. but dynamics of RWD are infinitely better in just about every measurement except maybe... fuel economy?
to be clear I'm not taking sides, as i said i have my roots firmly planted in FF and still dabble (had 2 accords in the last 5 years, and a civic before that)
but lets be honest, if FF was the way to go, why are supercars not FF?

now shifting gears a bit (see what i did there?), HPIGUY nailed it. the 90's was THE hayday for car enthusiasts. it never was as good as, and never will be again, as good as the 90's. cars were just... CARS. they didn't have wifi, they didn't call for help upon impact, they didn't TURN OFF RECIRC DURING DEFROST (seriously WTF) and automatic was a costly option. don't even get me started on these ECU's that act as a tattlebox, with GPS even! hackers cant lock my brakes if i'm driving something from the 90's or earlier.
ok tin foil hat off.

now as for the chevy SS... ah where to begin...
PRICE. no. just... no. cant touch one for under $32k here.
weight. you know a G37 sedan is only like 5 pounds heavier than a G37 coupe? its 400 pounds lighter than a chevy SS. (yes, power to weight blah blah blah... but weight makes a difference in handling i don't drag race)
handbrake. its on the floor like your granny's delta 88. no.

you could get a decent V8 equipped M3 sedan, replace the rod bearings and STILL be in it for less than a chevy SS and IMO, the M3 is a much better car, just like the old M5 they compared the SS to. (i read that article when it came out)

as for the 4 door hellcat in manual? nnnnnnope https://jalopnik.com/how-come-the-charger-doesnt-come-with-an-mtx-the-answ-1658664196/1658997687


don't get me wrong, i am a chevy guy at heart, my father in law once owned one of those mid-aught GTO's made by holden with Pontiac badges on them. car was awesome and i begged him to get it in manual incase he needed to sell it i would be right there with cash in hand. (he got the auto and sure enough had to sell it, i gave him a big old serving of told ya so)
i liked it so much i even looked into the Pontiac G8, the older brother of the SS, again shipped to USA from holden. you can get them in manual but cost just as much as the SS if not more due to its limited run and resulting "collectability". (its zeta II chassis even paved the way for the return of the modern Camaro... yes i know my stuff lol)

but hey thanks for the suggestion. i am not saying its a bad one, just that it doesn't suit me with my extremely specific requirements. (yes I'm a picky SOB)
the SS really is a great car, but just not for me.

**one more thing... looked into that Genesis G70... rear legroom is cramped. nope. G37 and 2001 GS300/400 both have 34", the later i have owned before and fits a rear-facing baby seat just right.
oh and it was also north of $32k. tied again with rebuilt V8 M3 sedan with 33.7" rear legroom.

so why the G37?
rwd 4 door manual (LSD avail) with v6 power and price of a 4 banger at $14k avg. boom. it even has a hoon handle.

 

[CM9000]

so in other words, FF cars do not suck.