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US Fuel Situation Compared to Rest of the World.

TheHeadHunter

RCC Addict
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,113
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www.rccrawler.com

May 21, 2008

Earlier today, the Senate Judiciary Committee summoned top executives from
the petroleum industry for what Chairman Pat Leahy thought would be a
politically profitable inquisition. Leahy and his comrades showed up ready
to blame American oil companies for the high price of gasoline, but the
event wasn't as satisfactory as the Democrats had hoped.

The industry lineup was formidable: Robert Malone, Chairman and President of
BP America, Inc.; John Hofmeister, President, Shell Oil Company; Peter
Robertson, Vice Chairman of the Board, Chevron Corporation; John Lowe,
Executive Vice President, Conoco Philips Company; and Stephen Simon,
Senior Vice President, Exxon Mobil Corporation. Not surprisingly, the petroleum
executives stole the show, as they were far smarter, infinitely better
informed, and much more public-spirited than the Senate Democrats.

One theme that emerged from the hearing was the surprisingly small role
played by American oil companies in the global petroleum market. John Lowe
pointed out:

I cannot overemphasize the access issue. Access to resources is severely
restricted in the United States and abroad, and the American oil industry
must compete with national oil companies who are often much larger and
have the support of their governments.

We can only compete directly for 7 percent of the world's available reserves
while about 75 percent is completely controlled by national oil companies
and is not accessible.

Stephen Simon amplified:

Exxon Mobil is the largest U.S. oil and gas company, but we account for only
2 percent of global energy production, only 3 percent of global oil
production, only 6 percent of global refining capacity, and only 1 percent
of global petroleum reserves. With respect to petroleum reserves, we rank
14th. Government-owned national oil companies dominate the top spots. For an
American company to succeed in this competitive landscape and go head to
head with huge government-backed national oil companies, it needs financial
strength and scale to execute massive complex energy projects requiring
enormous long-term investments.

To simply maintain our current operations and make needed capital
investments, Exxon Mobil spends nearly $1 billion each day.

Because foreign companies and governments control the overwhelming majority
of the world's oil, most of the price you pay at the pump is the cost paid
by the American oil company to acquire crude oil from someone else.

Last year, the average price in the United States of a gallon of regular
unleaded gasoline was around $2.80. On average in 2007, approximately 58
percent of the price reflected the amount paid for crude oil. Consumers pay
for that crude oil, and so do we.

Of the 2 million barrels per day Exxon Mobil refined in 2007 here in the
United States , 90 percent were purchased from others.

Another theme of the day's testimony was that, if anyone is 'gouging'
consumers through the high price of gasoline, it is federal and state
governments, not American oil companies. On the average, 15% percent of the
cost of gasoline at the pump goes for taxes, while only 4% represents oil
company profits. These figures were repeated several times, but, strangely,
not a single Democratic Senator proposed relieving consumers' anxieties
about gas prices by reducing taxes.

The last theme that was sounded repeatedly was Congress's responsibility for
the fact that American companies have access to so little petroleum. Shell's
John Hofmeister explained, eloquently:

While all oil-importing nations buy oil at global prices, some, notably
India and China , subsidize the cost of oil products to their nation's
consumers, feeding the demand for more oil despite record prices. They do
this to speed economic growth and to ensure a competitive advantage relative
to other nations.

Meanwhile, in the United States, access to our own oil and gas resources has
been limited for the last 30 years, prohibiting companies such as Shell from
exploring and developing resources for the benefit of the American people.

Senator Sessions, I agree, it is not a free market.

According to the Department of the Interior, 62 percent of all on-shore
federal lands are off limits to oil and gas developments, with restrictions
applying to 92 percent of all federal lands. We have an outer continental
shelf moratorium on the Atlantic Ocean, an outer continental shelf
moratorium on the Pacific Ocean, an outer continental shelf moratorium on
the eastern Gulf of Mexico, congressional bans on on-shore oil and gas
activities in specific areas of the Rockies and Alaska, and even a
congressional ban on doing an analysis of the resource potential for oil and
gas in the Atlantic, Pacific and eastern Gulf of Mexico.

The Argonne National Laboratory did a report in 2004 that identified 40
specific federal policy areas that halt, limit, delay or restrict natural
gas projects. I urge you to review it. It is a long list. If I may, I offer
it today if you would like to include it in the record.

When many of these policies were implemented, oil was selling in the single
digits, not the triple digits we see now. The cumulative effect of these
policies has been to discourage U.S. investment and send U.S. companies
outside the United States to produce new supplies.

As a result, U.S. production has declined so much that nearly 60 percent of
daily consumption comes from foreign sources.

The problem of access can be solved in this country by the same government
that has prohibited it. Congress could have chosen to lift some or all of
the current restrictions on exportation and production of oil and gas.
Congress could provide national policy to reverse the persistent decline of
domestically secure natural resource development.

Later in the hearing, Senator Orrin Hatch walked Hofmeister through the
Democrats' latest efforts to block energy independence:

HATCH: I want to get into that. In other words, we're talking about Utah ,
Colorado and Wyoming . It's fair to say that they're not considered part of
America's $22 billion of proven reserves.

HOFMEISTER: Not at all.

HATCH: No, but experts agree that there's between 800 billion to almost 2
trillion barrels of oil that could be recoverable there, and that's good oil, isn't it?

HOFMEISTER: That's correct.

HATCH: It could be recovered at somewhere between $30 and $40 a barrel?

HATCH: But they're stopping us from doing that right here, as we sit here.
We just had a hearing last week where Democrats had stopped the ability to
do that, in at least Colorado .

HOFMEISTER: Well, as I said in my opening statement, I think the public
policy constraints on the supply side in this country are a disservice to
the American consumer.

The committee's Democrats attempted no response. They know that they are
largely responsible for the current high price of gasoline, and they want
the price to rise even further. Consequently, they have no intention of
permitting the development of domestic oil and gas reserves that would both
increase this country's energy independence and give consumers a break from
constantly increasing energy costs.

OK pretty informative ...now check out whats going on in Spain

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080610/ts_afp/europeinflationprotestenergytransport


Hope it Doesn't get to this in the US....:roll:
 
To simply maintain our current operations and make needed capital
investments, Exxon Mobil spends nearly $1 billion each day.

Because foreign companies and governments control the overwhelming majority of the world's oil, most of the price you pay at the pump is the cost paid by the American oil company to acquire crude oil from someone else.

Last year, the average price in the United States of a gallon of regular
unleaded gasoline was around $2.80. On average in 2007, approximately 58 percent of the price reflected the amount paid for crude oil. Consumers pay for that crude oil, and so do we.

when gas was at 3.00 a gal....a barrel of crude oil was at 110.00 a barrel, that's 2.00 a gal that exxon paid for crude oil....the price was 3.00 at the pump, now look at the profits exxon was posting at that time too....pretty impressive huh :?: ....when crude hit 120.00 a barrel that was a increase of .19 a gal of crude to exxon and .60 at the pumps per gal, what's up with that :?: ....when i worked for amoco in N.J. my boss who rented a garage and just sold amoco gas had everything paid by amoco when amoco remoldeled the garage, tanks, pumps and all even the building got made over....my boss wasn't allowed to sell gas for more then .05 a gal over what he paid for it....the amount of gas he sold in a week he was making 2,400.00 in profits a week....at the time he was only paying me 200.00 a week cash for 45 hours work a week....i don't know if that .05 a gal was an amoco thing, a N.J. thing or a fed goverment thing or if that's how things are today....i can't find anything on it now....now when crude oil went from 136.00 a barrel to 122.00 a barrel gas at the pump dropped .10 a gal to where crude dropped .25 a gal, still .15 cents went somewhere huh :?: ....now back to that no more then .05 a gal profit a dealer can sell it at the pump....when dealers get a call there next shipment is going up, they are out jacking the price at the pump before the truck is even at the station dumping in there tanks....but when that same call says it's coming down they are not lowering it at the pump till the truck is done and gone....by then how many hundred of gal of gas was sold at the higher price before the truck gets there or is gone depending on what happens....makes you think huh :?: ....plus the U.S. is the biggest user of crude in the world right now and haven't even tried tapping what crude we have in the ground here....the numbers don't add up or down at whatever crude is a barrel....so if exxon is claiming such big profits when gas was just a dollar more from what they were paying for crude at the pump....how much does it cost to refine a gal of crude to gas and the left over is turned into propane and kerosene and sold, hmmm something new to think about huh :?: ....................bob

....
 
I just filled up my gas guzzling Jeep yesterday. How much did I pay? Don't know, I just tossed the reciept as it doesn't matter.... I have to pay to play.
 
how many of us traveled over memorial holiday? how many of you guys traveled just recently to the last competition there was?

american people are complainers by day but refuse to let people restrict us from doing things we like. gas is over $4 a gallon at the pumps but yet we all loaded up our trucks/cars/suvs or what ever and went on our way.

we will pay what ever it is at the pump ........ they know this. BUT the oil companies do prove a point with their statement about taxes. CT had a gas tax raise on the books since last year that is suppose to go in effect next month. do you think they are negotiating putting a pause on that raise untill fuel prices come down? Nope, they say well it was already approved so we cant stop it now. BS!

we have far worse problems brewing in this country right now besides the fuel prices, the problem is the media is only focusing on that at the moment.
 
Seriously, learn to punctuate your ramblings. That wall of text is hard to read.

oh please get over it, will everyone :roll: ....what's wrong now :flipoff:...if i only use one period people will complain they can't see the end of each sentence LMAO AT ALL OF YOU TEACHERS....better then the black text no body complained about.........bob

....
 
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I pull up to the pump--fill my dodge--pull out and lay a nice cloud of black smoke :lol:

There aint a damn thing we can do about it--except burn all we can get our hands on "thumbsup"
 
When I lived in England we could buy fuel on base. It was so much cheaper than off base. They are paying almost $2 a liter and it takes about 3-4 liters to fill up a gallon so it's about $7-8 a gallon. Expect that in the future. Thank goodness for my Neon.
 
how many of us traveled over memorial holiday? how many of you guys traveled just recently to the last competition there was?

american people are complainers by day but refuse to let people restrict us from doing things we like. gas is over $4 a gallon at the pumps but yet we all loaded up our trucks/cars/suvs or what ever and went on our way.

Actually...figures show that the usage of gas has gone down since pricing has gotten out of hand. Also, yes...people did stay home and not travel as they would have for Memorial weekend. People are not spending as they were only several months ago...they have to use whatever "extra" they have to offset the high fuel costs.

It's funny how people only talk about the "price at the pump" as if fuel costs are only affecting our daily commute.

Airlines.....have you heard about them lately and what they will have to do to stay in business? Some of the larger airlines will spend over 5 billion this year MORE than last year just for fuel costs. Some have already done away with any form of "free" snacks/drinks. If you want drinks, whether it be water or soda...or if you want even a bag of peanuts, you'll pay for them now. You will now pay an extra charge for having a second bag checked. On top of these now additional charges, the rates will be raised substantially, and you'll have less options to fly to your destination since they will be getting rid of many flights. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if airfare doubled.

One airline (I believe it was US Airways) said that it was costing them over $700 on average per person. Not only due to added fuel costs, but now because the planes are not fully booked. They still have to fly that half-booked plane and now the total cost of the flight is only paid by half the passengers. There goes your margin.

Retail.....the cost of products are now and will continue to rise due to fuel prices. It takes fuel to get those trucks to the stores with your goods. Many companies have been able to absorb fluctuating costs, but it has gotten to a point that it's impossible to absorb the rising costs. You either have to adjust your prices or go out of business.

High fuel costs don't only affect your filling up at the pump.
 
I didn't even read it, I couldn't focus on the damn thing.:lol:

When gas was at 3.00 a gal.
A barrel of crude oil was at 110.00 a barrel, that's 2.00 a gal that exxon paid for crude oil.
The price was $3.00 at the pump, now look at the profits exxon was posting at that time too, pretty impressive huh?
When crude hit $120.00 a barrel that was a increase of .19 a gal of crude to exxon and .60 at the pumps per gal, what's up with that?
When i worked for amoco in N.J. my boss who rented a garage and just sold amoco gas had everything paid by amoco when amoco remoldeled the garage, tanks, pumps and all even the building got made over.
My boss wasn't allowed to sell gas for more then .05 a gal over what he paid for it.
The amount of gas he sold in a week he was making $2,400.00 in profits a week.
At the time he was only paying me $200.00 a week cash for 45 hours work a week.
I don't know if that .05 a gal was an amoco thing, a N.J. thing or a fed goverment thing or if that's how things are today.
I can't find anything on it now.
Now when crude oil went from $136.00 a barrel to $122.00 a barrel, gas at the pump dropped .10 a gal to where crude dropped .25 a gal, still .15 cents went somewhere.
Now back to that no more then .05 a gal profit a dealer can sell it at the pump.
When dealers get a call there next shipment is going up, they are out jacking the price at the pump before the truck is even at the station dumping in there tanks.
But when that same call says it's coming down they are not lowering it at the pump till the truck is done and gone.
By then how many hundred of gal of gas was sold at the higher price before the truck gets there or is gone depending on what happens, makes you think huh?
Plus the U.S. is the biggest user of crude in the world right now and haven't even tried tapping what crude we have in the ground here.
The numbers don't add up or down at whatever crude is a barrel.
So if exxon is claiming such big profits when gas was just a dollar more from what they were paying for crude at the pump.
How much does it cost to refine a gal of crude to gas and the left over is turned into propane and kerosene and sold, hmmm something new to think about?

I can't make it any easier then this for anyone to read now. So if you are still having troubles looks like summer school is in your future:flipoff:....................bob

....
 
Actually...figures show that the usage of gas has gone down since pricing has gotten out of hand. Also, yes...people did stay home and not travel as they would have for Memorial weekend. People are not spending as they were only several months ago...they have to use whatever "extra" they have to offset the high fuel costs.

It's funny how people only talk about the "price at the pump" as if fuel costs are only affecting our daily commute.

Airlines.....have you heard about them lately and what they will have to do to stay in business? Some of the larger airlines will spend over 5 billion this year MORE than last year just for fuel costs. Some have already done away with any form of "free" snacks/drinks. If you want drinks, whether it be water or soda...or if you want even a bag of peanuts, you'll pay for them now. You will now pay an extra charge for having a second bag checked. On top of these now additional charges, the rates will be raised substantially, and you'll have less options to fly to your destination since they will be getting rid of many flights. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if airfare doubled.

One airline (I believe it was US Airways) said that it was costing them over $700 on average per person. Not only due to added fuel costs, but now because the planes are not fully booked. They still have to fly that half-booked plane and now the total cost of the flight is only paid by half the passengers. There goes your margin.

Retail.....the cost of products are now and will continue to rise due to fuel prices. It takes fuel to get those trucks to the stores with your goods. Many companies have been able to absorb fluctuating costs, but it has gotten to a point that it's impossible to absorb the rising costs. You either have to adjust your prices or go out of business.

High fuel costs don't only affect your filling up at the pump.

Now some and soon all airlines are charging by the pound to fly you. Your right the fuel costs impact how things get here and there...............bob

....
 
http://pacificfreepress.com/content/view....

The Great Oil Swindle: How Much Did the Fed Really Know?
by Mike Whitney

The Commodity Futures and Trading Commission (CFTC) is investigating trading in oil futures to determine whether the surge in prices to record levels is the result of manipulation or fraud.

They might want to take a look at wheat, rice and corn futures while they're at it.

The whole thing is a hoax cooked up by the investment banks and hedge funds who are trying to dig their way out of the trillion dollar mortgage-backed securities (MBS) mess that they created by turning garbage loans into securities. That scam blew up in their face last August and left them scrounging for handouts from the Federal Reserve.


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</td><td class="quote-text">Now the billions of dollars they're getting from the Fed is being diverted into commodities which is destabilizing the world economy; driving gas prices to the moon and triggering food riots across the planet.</td></tr></tbody></table></center>

For months we've been told that the soaring price of oil has been the result of Peak Oil, fighting in Iraq, attacks on oil facilities in Nigeria, labor problems in Norway, and (the all-time favorite)growth in China. It's all baloney. Just like Goldman Sachs prediction of $200 per barrel oil is baloney. If oil is about to skyrocket then why has G-Sax kept a neutral rating on some of its oil holdings like Exxon Mobile? Could it be that they know that oil is just another mega-inflated equity bubble---like housing, corporate bonds and dot.com stocks—that is about to crash to earth as soon as the big players grab a parachute?

There are three things that are driving up the price of oil: the falling dollar, speculation and buying on margin.

The dollar is tanking because of the Federal Reserve's low interest monetary policies have kept interest rates below the rate of inflation for most of the last decade. Add that to the $700 billion current account deficit and a National Debt that has increased from $5.8 trillion when Bush first took office to over $9 trillion today and it's a wonder the dollar hasn't gone “Poof” already.

According to a January 4 editorial in the Wall Street Journal: “If the dollar had remained 'as good as gold' since 2001, oil today would be selling at about $30 per barrel, not $99. (today $126 per barrel) The decline of the dollar against gold and oil suggests a US monetary that is supplying too many dollars.” Wall Street Journal 1-4-08

The price of oil has more than quadrupled since 2001, from roughly $30 per barrel to $126, WITHOUT ANY DISRUPTIONS TO SUPPLY. There's no shortage; it's just gibberish.

As far as “buying on margin” consider this summary from author William Engdahl:


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</td><td class="quote-text">A conservative calculation is that at least 60% of today’s $128 per barrel price of crude oil comes from unregulated futures speculation by hedge funds, banks and financial groups using the London ICE Futures and New York NYMEX futures exchanges and uncontrolled inter-bank or Over-The-Counter trading to avoid scrutiny. US margin rules of the government’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy a crude oil futures contract on the Nymex, by having to pay only 6% of the value of the contract. At today's price of $128 per barrel, that means a futures trader only has to put up about $8 for every barrel. He borrows the other $120. This extreme “leverage” of 16 to 1 helps drive prices to wildly unrealistic levels and offset bank losses in sub-prime and other disasters at the expense of the overall population.</td></tr></tbody></table></center>


So the investment banks and their trading partners at the hedge funds can game the system for a mere 8 bucks per barrel or 16 to 1 leverage. Not bad, eh?

Is it possible that gambling on oil futures might be a temptation for banks that are already underwater from a trillion dollars worth of mortgage-related deals that have “gone south” leaving the banking system essentially bankrupt?

And if the banks and hedgies are not playing this game, then where is the money coming from? I have compiled charts and graphs that show that nearly two-thirds of the big investment banks' revenue came from the securitization of commercial and residential real estate loans. That market is frozen. Besides, this is not just a matter of “loan delinquencies” or MBS that have to be written off. The banks are "revenue starved". How are they filling the coffers? They're either neck-deep in interest rate swaps, derivatives trading, or gaming the futures market. Which is it?

Of course, there is one other possibility, but if that possibility turned out to be right than it would cast doubt on the legitimacy of the entire financial system. In fact, it would prove that the system is being rigged from the top-down by our friends at the Banking Politburo, the Federal Reserve. Here goes:

What if the investment banks are trading their worthless MBS and CDOs at the Fed's auction facilities and using the money ($400 billion) to drive up the price of raw materials like rice, corn, wheat, and oil?

Could it be? Could the Fed really be looking the other way so it can bail out its banking buddies while they drive prices skyward?

If it is true; (and I suspect it is) it hasn't done much good. As the Associated Press reported yesterday:


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</td><td class="quote-text">The Federal Reserve announced Thursday that it will make a fresh batch of short-term cash loans available to squeezed banks as part of an ongoing effort to ease stressed credit markets. The Fed said it will conduct three auctions in June, with each one making $75 billion available in short-term cash loans. Banks can bid for a slice of the available funds. It would mark the latest round in a program that the Fed launched in December to help banks overcome credit problems so they will keep lending to customers.</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
Another $225 billion for the bankers and not a dime for the struggling homeowner! The Fed is bankrupting the country with their permanent rotating loans to keep reckless speculators from going under. So much for moral hazard.

As far as speculation, there is ample evidence that the system is being manipulated. According to MarketWatch:


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</td><td class="quote-text">Speculative activity in commodity markets has grown "enormously" over the past several years, the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee said in a news release. It pointed out that in five years, from 2003 to 2008, investment in the index funds tied to commodities has grown by 20-fold -- to $260 billion from $13 billion.</td></tr></tbody></table></center>


And here's a revealing clip from the testimony of Michael W. Masters of Masters Capital Management, LLC, who addressed the issue of “Commodities Speculation” before the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs this week:


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</td><td class="quote-text">Today, Index Speculators are pouring billions of dollars into the commodities futures markets, speculating that commodity prices will increase.
</td></tr></tbody></table></center>

In the popular press the explanation given most often for rising oil prices is the increased demand for oil from China.

According to the DOE, annual Chinese demand for petroleum has increased over the last five years from 1.88 billion barrels to 2.8 billion barrels, an increase of 920 million barrels. Over the same five-year period, Index Speculatorsʼ demand for petroleum futures has increased by 848 million barrels. THE INCREASE IN DEMAND FROM INDEX SPECULATORS IS ALMOST EQUAL TO THE INCREASE IN DEMAND FROM CHINA.

Index Speculators have now stockpiled, via the futures market, the equivalent of 1.1 billion barrels of petroleum, effectively adding eight times as much oil to their own stockpile as the United States has added to the Strategic Petroleum Reserve over the last five years.

Today, in many commodities futures markets, they are the single largest force. The huge growth in their demand has gone virtually undetected by classically-trained economists who almost never analyze demand in futures markets.

As money pours into the markets, two things happen concurrently: the markets expand and prices rise. One particularly troubling aspect of Index Speculator demand is that it actually increases the more prices increase. This explains the accelerating rate at which commodity futures prices (and actual commodity prices) are increasing. The CFTC has taken deliberate steps to allow CERTAIN SPECULATORS VIRTUALLY UNLIMITED ACCESS TO THE COMMODITIES FUTURES MARKETS.

The CFTC has granted Wall Street banks an exemption from speculative position limits when these banks hedge over-the-counter swaps transactions. This has effectively opened a loophole for unlimited speculation. When Index Speculators enter into commodity index swaps, which 85-90% of them do, they face no speculative position limits.... The result is a gross distortion in data that effectively hides the full impact of Index Speculation.” (Thanks to Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis; the one “indispensable” financial blog on the Internet)

Masters adds that the CFTC is pressing to make “Index Speculators exempt from all position limits” so they can make “unlimited” bets on the futures which are wreaking havoc on the global economy and pushing millions towards starvation. Of course, these things pale in comparison to the higher priority of fatting the bottom line of the parasitic investor class.

Brimming oil tankers are presently sitting off the coasts of Iran and Louisiana. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve has been filled. Demand is flat. The world's biggest consumer of energy (guess who?) is cutting back .

As CNN reports:


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</td><td class="quote-text">At a time when gas prices are at an all-time high, Americans have curtailed their driving at a historic rate. The Department of Transportation said figures from March show the steepest decrease in driving ever recorded. Compared with March a year earlier, Americans drove an estimated 4.3 percent less -- that's 11 billion fewer miles, the DOT's Federal Highway Administration said Monday, calling it "the sharpest yearly drop for any month in FHWA history.</td></tr></tbody></table></center>


The great oil crunch is another fabricated crisis; another "smoke and mirrors" fiasco; another Enron-type shell-game engineered by banksters and hedge fund managers. Once again, the bloody footprints can be traced right back to the front door of the Federal Reserve. Don't expect help from the regulators either; they've all been replaced with business reps like Harvey Pitt or Hank Paulson.

The only time anyone in the Bush administration finds their conscience is when they're offered a multi-million dollar “tell all” book deal.
 
Airlines.....have you heard about them lately and what they will have to do to stay in business?

It will just fall on the back of the consumer again as usual :roll:, I can hardly see the companies struggling so wait for air fares to sky-rocket there unless they haven't yet and people will pay to fly without a doubt;-).

You and I will always get the raw end of the bargain .....

Just to quote the huge 70% tobacco tax increase in Australia in the 1990's never worked as intended , people are still smoking as much as they did then and paying over $12 a packet of cigarettes today and have got over all the whining years back, expect the same will happen in the US.
 
I am not reading all of that! plz... can you sum it up for us simple folk.

sorry for the wall o' text

investment bankers manipulated the price of oil to recoup some of the losses from the mortgage bust. they did this by purchasing as much oil as they could and are sitting on it. they are using our own money loaned by the government to do it.

i love a good conspiracy theory :mrgreen:
 
sorry for the wall o' text

investment bankers manipulated the price of oil to recoup some of the losses from the mortgage bust. they did this by purchasing as much oil as they could and are sitting on it. they are using our own money loaned by the government to do it.

i love a good conspiracy theory :mrgreen:

I do like your theory "thumbsup" your head is screwed on right :lol:!!!!


As long as you are not one of those paranoid theory preachers that never stop philosophizing about how everything is all a manipulative scam and we are all just slaves to the government and media which control us through brain washing chemicals in tooth paste:lol:
 
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