It happens with foams too.So, 3d inserts are the problem and not the comboSeen that funky look many a times online with these type of inserts so confirmation is appreciated.
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Squid'nserts and Tusks, tyre "crumpling"?
- Thread starter m4inbrain
- Start date
Nah, appreciate the suggestions, but i'm over it now. I'll not bend over backwards just to try and make them work, that's honestly a bit ridiculous.
I may use a hot knife to punch a few holes in the sidewall tomorrow, since these fronts are already junk now, but i don't have huge hope - the venting isn't the issue. I will not throw any chalk dust or similar into a wheel that will get wet, i'll save myself the headache and mess.
Further, they are silicon inserts, in soft Tusks. Of course they'll stick, it's soft rubber - anything will stick. And not just in my tyre, but any tyre. The fact of the matter is, these are specifically "designed" for Tusk tyres (named on the website), nowhere does it state to "lubricate" the insert to prevent it sticking. Indeed, that would make it worse, because then the tread of the insert would just slip on the inside of the tyre, meaning that all forward movement is done by torquing the sidewalls of the tyre, if that makes sense. The fact that mine do it, but others don't, simply point to the option that mine are "different" than other inserts. As in, defective.
It's not meant to be rude or anything, but i'm simply too old, and have neither time nor interest to waste more time on this - i'll rather get "ol' reliable" dual stage foam, and enjoy myself with the lads at the beach. I do appreciate all help given here, thanks to everyone.
I may use a hot knife to punch a few holes in the sidewall tomorrow, since these fronts are already junk now, but i don't have huge hope - the venting isn't the issue. I will not throw any chalk dust or similar into a wheel that will get wet, i'll save myself the headache and mess.
Further, they are silicon inserts, in soft Tusks. Of course they'll stick, it's soft rubber - anything will stick. And not just in my tyre, but any tyre. The fact of the matter is, these are specifically "designed" for Tusk tyres (named on the website), nowhere does it state to "lubricate" the insert to prevent it sticking. Indeed, that would make it worse, because then the tread of the insert would just slip on the inside of the tyre, meaning that all forward movement is done by torquing the sidewalls of the tyre, if that makes sense. The fact that mine do it, but others don't, simply point to the option that mine are "different" than other inserts. As in, defective.
It's not meant to be rude or anything, but i'm simply too old, and have neither time nor interest to waste more time on this - i'll rather get "ol' reliable" dual stage foam, and enjoy myself with the lads at the beach. I do appreciate all help given here, thanks to everyone.
^^^ Exactly what my mindset would be as well. Love The CI foams that I've got... trails/ rocks. They're better than any PL's. Another that I've been happy with are from Crazy Crawler just in case you ever want to consider another brand. But yeah.. Crawler Innovations is a reputable company with an owner that has been intricately involved in the crawling scene for many years. Can't comment on the newer tech with 3d printed, silicone, injection, etc stuff but Foams that need a lot of fitment work or tweaking isn't my thing either. I've cut up and beveled some pairs of regular foam inserts before ( with good results) but I'd rather just stuff em and run em. Shame that was an expensive venture.
No need to lube an insert.
A leather punch is $10 shipped to your door on Amazon and it takes less than 30 seconds to punch a few holes in a tire.
I completely understand that tuning foams/ tires isn't a big deal and not generally a big expense. But I also greatly appreciate where OP is coming from at this point. Sometimes what works fine for others isn't necessarily what someone else wants to mess with. Different strokes. And I've certainly run into issues before with things that from one person's perspective may be a quick/ easy fix but that I'm personally tired of messing with for whatever reasons.
FWIW @Col_Sanders - I continue to learn invaluable things from your experience and I never doubt your expertise but again, I understand where OP is at right now.
i easily have 20 tire and wheel combos including jconcepts running 3d printed inserts i have never seen this my inserts dont stick to the tires
the only time i have seen anything like this is bead slip
if its sticky tires or inserts a few runs in the water and dirt and that stickyness goes away
the new inserts are leaps and bounds better than any foam in my opinion i have had to many foams go bad closed cell foam goes flat and take forever to comeback if ever and it breaks down over time to the point theres just a floating foam doughnut inside the tire
the inserts are the same new as they are 2 years old
the only time foams are better than the inserts is in competition and only cause there heavyer than foams
the only time i have seen anything like this is bead slip
if its sticky tires or inserts a few runs in the water and dirt and that stickyness goes away
the new inserts are leaps and bounds better than any foam in my opinion i have had to many foams go bad closed cell foam goes flat and take forever to comeback if ever and it breaks down over time to the point theres just a floating foam doughnut inside the tire
the inserts are the same new as they are 2 years old
the only time foams are better than the inserts is in competition and only cause there heavyer than foams
89Industries
Quarry Creeper
OP, I didn't realize you were overseas and paid that much to get the inserts. I thought they were expensive just with domestic shipping and the fact that they are a tuning item where I like to try different stuff. And I have many trucks, with a few different size wheels and different size tires.
What happens with the OP tire/insert/rim combo twisting up is:
-insert is loose on rim
-apply torque to wheel with tire on ground and it's enough to overcome the low friction of the loose insert to rim interface
-So tire stays in contact with ground, keeping the insert with it, while rim turns.
-When you let off throttle the weight of the vehicle and the squeeze of the tire is enough to create enough friction on the insert to rim interface that the sidewall twist up (thin side walls) can't overcome it and return the insert to the original location.
Perhaps adding talc between the tire and insert would allow the tire to just slip back into place but that is not really the right solution imo, plus talc + water makes a mess like the OP says. Used to do this with talc'd tubes in bicycle tires to allow the tube to untwist and correctly shape itself to the inside of the tire on installation.
Sucks that sl3d isn't getting back to you.
I have 7 trucks with 3d inserts. Only one set does this twist up.
For trailing, the 3d inserts worked a lot better for me. I do run through creeks and some water and vent my wheels through the rims. Sidehilling is the biggest difference I notice.
I cannot say they are better or worse in comp crawling as I don't do that. I could totally see proper foam set ups working very well or better in that situation.
My solution to the cost of 3d inserts was that it was time to start printing my own. I would gladly give my files and little bit of knowledge I've acquired (by no means an expert) to anyone on here that wants to try them. Plus I can justify the cost of the printer over many things, not just rc stuff. In fact I fixed my refrigerator drawer by designing and printing a part this week. I'm sure the replacement part works have been about $50 including shipping. Plus I've made parts for my kids toys, etc.
What happens with the OP tire/insert/rim combo twisting up is:
-insert is loose on rim
-apply torque to wheel with tire on ground and it's enough to overcome the low friction of the loose insert to rim interface
-So tire stays in contact with ground, keeping the insert with it, while rim turns.
-When you let off throttle the weight of the vehicle and the squeeze of the tire is enough to create enough friction on the insert to rim interface that the sidewall twist up (thin side walls) can't overcome it and return the insert to the original location.
Perhaps adding talc between the tire and insert would allow the tire to just slip back into place but that is not really the right solution imo, plus talc + water makes a mess like the OP says. Used to do this with talc'd tubes in bicycle tires to allow the tube to untwist and correctly shape itself to the inside of the tire on installation.
Sucks that sl3d isn't getting back to you.
I have 7 trucks with 3d inserts. Only one set does this twist up.
For trailing, the 3d inserts worked a lot better for me. I do run through creeks and some water and vent my wheels through the rims. Sidehilling is the biggest difference I notice.
I cannot say they are better or worse in comp crawling as I don't do that. I could totally see proper foam set ups working very well or better in that situation.
My solution to the cost of 3d inserts was that it was time to start printing my own. I would gladly give my files and little bit of knowledge I've acquired (by no means an expert) to anyone on here that wants to try them. Plus I can justify the cost of the printer over many things, not just rc stuff. In fact I fixed my refrigerator drawer by designing and printing a part this week. I'm sure the replacement part works have been about $50 including shipping. Plus I've made parts for my kids toys, etc.
These are some interesting comments for sure. I've only worked with printed inserts a few times and did not like their rapid spring-back on steep ascents. We tested on a few different tricky lines, and the printed inserts kicked the front tires off the rock. We may look at them again in the future since there are more updated designs out there.
As for twisting, we see it when the foam is undersized to the weight of the crawler, allowing traction to wrap the tire around the wheel. We adjust foams to deal with that, but have not ran into it but a few times. Between CI and Ottsix ( yes, I uttered the name that should not be said ), we have always found something that works. We never run in wet conditions, we mostly stick to dry, dusty sandstone and limestone, and all our tires are either racked or the trucks sit up on axle stands.
As for twisting, we see it when the foam is undersized to the weight of the crawler, allowing traction to wrap the tire around the wheel. We adjust foams to deal with that, but have not ran into it but a few times. Between CI and Ottsix ( yes, I uttered the name that should not be said ), we have always found something that works. We never run in wet conditions, we mostly stick to dry, dusty sandstone and limestone, and all our tires are either racked or the trucks sit up on axle stands.
89Industries
Quarry Creeper
I can totally see what you're talking about with the 3d inserts being undamped. I've also noticed some twist up but return to normal (like a drag slick, not stuck like OP issue) which being undamped could spring back unexpectedly.
I don't have much reference to know what others' good setups can do though since I don't have crawler friends IRL to compare to. I can only judge by improvements I have made(ie, changed "x" and now it makes it up the obstacle that it didn't use to, etc). Or once in a while I run into some other people at a local spot.
I'd say if you want to try 3d inserts again that you should buy a printer and get some CAD. Then just iterate. The material isn't too expensive and tiny adjustments to thickness seems to make a lot of difference. The most difficult part for me was that 4 inserts takes like 6 hours to print. So by the time I get a set printed I have 10 other ideas I want to try. As I said, I'd offer up what I have as a starting point if desired.
We have a bank of 3d printers ( filament, SLA ) here at our manufacturing facility with 5 seats of SW, ect. Designing them is no problem, it's just a matter of breaking into the printing schedule for inserts. We actually messed with a hybrid version a few years back and just couldn't see the difference. They were good, but no better than the CI setups.
The Ottsix foams have been very interesting in that they either work exceeding well, or somewhat flounder. They strike me as being very weight sensitive. We keep testing them on different setups, and with tires like the JConcepts Megalithics ( a rounded tire crown ), they really shine on light-weight crawlers. We just finsihed a piece on the RC4WD Irok 1.9's, and the UL's didn't support the thin carcass well enough on the three different crawlers. Swapping to the CI's helped, but the rubber compound became the primary limitation. Still a fun tire to experiment with.
I would be curious to see who the best manufacturer of printed inserts are considered to be and just try those out. It's not a cost issue, but rather just a time element. I've tried 3Bros, Flubby, and something else, and all three ended up in the trash at some point and were not replaced. If we ran in wet conditions, I'm pretty sure my opinion would be different. Most likely we will need to search around and give another brand a try, maybe include them in one of our upcoming tire reviews and compare them to traditional foams. Because we don't have a operating web store at the moment for our custom parts, it makes little sense for us to test an in-house design printed insert that people cannot purchase for themselves. I'd rather work with something accessible to everyone.
There's still much to learn about these, so I'm keeping an open mind for future testing.
I used to run 4.5" comp cut lil novas in my 4.75" tires and never had the twist problem. Traction was awesome, but sidehill sucked. They'd also fold over pretty bad when turning, especially if going down hill. That problem got worse once they aged and had been wet a couple times.
I think the best option would be a hybrid setup with foam outer and 3d printed inner. That should be the best of both worlds for those of you who can avoid water.
I think the best option would be a hybrid setup with foam outer and 3d printed inner. That should be the best of both worlds for those of you who can avoid water.
