Initial machine purchase

[Tryker46]

if this is what's concidered thread jacking i'm sorry??
freemachinist, if you're trying to say that there's no replacement for experience, i totally agree! i was just throwing out my first experiences(over travel alarms, cutter comp alarms, tailstock restricted zone alarms)
which happened while i was making wheels for my willys. the real point of the post was to give my .02 about getting started with a manual setup. you made another good point in the fact that the code accepted can differ from brands of machines.
pbarsamian, those are some good links"thumbsup" ive been eyeing the seig cnc's they sell at littlemachineshop.com.
anybody know what any of the vendors are using by chance?(mills lathes cad/cam software) it would be interesting to hear some of their input.

slickrockspider, i made a set of 5 for my project in school. hand written code, no software.

 

[C*H*U*D]

I'll do machining for anyone at fair rates. PM me.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you should be careful about advertising services here without a vendor's star. Just a heads up "thumbsup"

 

[freemachinist]

Technically i was offering, not advertising, but I hear you.

I actually Emailed a moderator about it and never heard back.

 

[Bad Attitude]

if this is what's concidered thread jacking i'm sorry??
freemachinist, if you're trying to say that there's no replacement for experience, i totally agree! i was just throwing out my first experiences(over travel alarms, cutter comp alarms, tailstock restricted zone alarms)
which happened while i was making wheels for my willys. the real point of the post was to give my .02 about getting started with a manual setup. you made another good point in the fact that the code accepted can differ from brands of machines.
pbarsamian, those are some good links"thumbsup" ive been eyeing the seig cnc's they sell at littlemachineshop.com.
anybody know what any of the vendors are using by chance?(mills lathes cad/cam software) it would be interesting to hear some of their input.

slickrockspider, i made a set of 5 for my project in school. hand written code, no software.

Tryker, those are some awesome wheels! I've been maching for going on twenty five years, only having access to Cam software for the last eight or so years... I think anybody getting into machining needs to learn G-code programming before anything else though. It's hard to edit a program if necessary if you can't read the code! As far as conversational goes, it's alright for the speed in which you can write a fairly complex program for a small run of parts. Me, I'd still type it in right there at the machining center! "thumbsup"

Keep up the great work!

 

[pbarsamian]

FreeMachinist - I don't have the experience you do but I concur that even for the same machine, (as I learned) motion control software and hardware varies in interpretation of canned cycles (I spent more than a few hours digging to figure out why peck drilling stopped working after I changed controllers).

Also I completely agree that you will never replace a HAAS VMC or a Bridgeport with something that can sit on a bench.

That said, there are a few people I've met in the machining hobby forums and through some RC forums that are able to do small production runs fairly effectively with garage/basement shop machines (i've done qty 50 runs of parts with my TAIG holding the critical tolerances to a few thou but it took way longer than it should have)

A good source of info on commonly used "not quite toolroom" machines, conversions, and restoration projects is www.cnczone.com.

There are a lot of folks who do conversions but you really need to have machining and metal working equipment to do these so it's tougher to start out that way.

A lot of people seem to like the Cyil machines as well as Tormachs (which can be pricey). Light Machine corp used to make some pretty nice benchtop mills that are a step above the sherline/taig stuff out there and you can still find them on Ebay and in machining forums for reasonable prices used. I have a buddy that is fitting one with a hydralic drawbar and working through building an auto tool changer for one.
Harbor Freight actually has a pair of pretty nice CNC machines they only offer through their website. From reports I've heard, these are rebranded SIEG machines but I can't confirm this with any confidence.


In closing (as I muse at this ungodly hour), I'm linking a youtube video of my mill profiling some parts I was working on a while back. Gives you an idea of the speed/feed possible with a TAIG. I'm using a 5/32 2 flute for this opp and taking .06" depth passes slotting these parts out. Spindle speed is set at 3500rpm and I'm running at about 7IPM here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqxJllB4YjQ

if you listen you can hear the machine (which is bolted to steel plates attached to a heavy wood workbench) just starting to really load up (I'm at about maximum speed/feed combo for .25" aluminum here). Also notice the flood coolant running (which made a huge difference in speed/feed ability and surface finish).

 

[Matt12]

you could check out http://buildyourcnc.com what they use the cnc for is different bt there is alot of info about how they work from design to software "thumbsup"

 

[toy4crawlin]

Great feedback Ace.

I didn't think Taig was good stuff. I am now on the fence with this and a Mathews Pm45 Mill.

Mill small stuff, Delrin, Aluminum.


Any others have Recommendations for Mills for us Hobbyist ?

 

[toy4crawlin]

Bought my first Mill ! :mrgreen:
After wanting a milling machine for over 15 years and many weeks of research over the past year across many forums like http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=37331 , http://www.mini-lathe.com/X3_mill/Sx3rvw/SX3-4.htm and practical machinist, I just pulled the trigger on a Seig super x3, AKA Grizzly G0619 or Shop Fox M1111. Shop fox sells this same machine (different color) offers an extended warranty. the cot of the machine on their site was $1650.
I liked the Shopmaster products and liked that they were USA based but It was difficult to get a hold of one or deal with shipping from a former owner.
I was also looking at the PM45 Mathews mill, but looking at cost, size and what size of projects I would mainly use it for I realized it was over kill and just over my Budget.
Read through many forums and reviews on this machine and it was very well liked. 6" x 21" so it will fit well on my bench. Runs on a 220 single phase motor but you can plug into 110, 1HP motor, has DIgital RPM gauge, Digital depth gauge and kits for added for DRO.
It was on sale for $1250. I added in a 4" rotary table, R8 collets, 4" vise and some other things. Total cost delivered to my House was $1650.
I ordered direct through Grizzly but you can order through Amazon as well.

This is not my machine, still waiting on delivery !

 

[losikid]

Hey guys, i've been considering getting a little mill, preferably cnc. And i found a cnc taig that has the 4th axis for $1500 the guy said he used it twice. Whats the faults with the taig, and would i have a better option to look at for another bench top cnc mill for up to $1000 more.

 

[pbarsamian]

Key questions to ask when buying a used Taig:

1) what steppers (270oz or better almost required)
2) controller (prefer gecko, the old xylotex boards that lots of people used to put on these are not ideal)
3) Which motor, they had several, HP is everything
4) which spindle, if it doesn't have the ER spindle upgrade, you'll be miserable trying to find collets for it

For 1K more you should be looking at some of the cyil mills (the X3 mentioned above comes to mind and would by my first choice), they are a LOT more rigid and similarly sized, and they run standard collets and tooling as well as having a bed that uses normally sized T slots, etc etc.

You can get a really nicely outfitted Taig brand new for around 1800 so keep in mind you are paying somewhere way north of 50% of value for a used machine.

 

[losikid]

Key questions to ask when buying a used Taig:

1) what steppers (270oz or better almost required)
2) controller (prefer gecko, the old xylotex boards that lots of people used to put on these are not ideal)
3) Which motor, they had several, HP is everything
4) which spindle, if it doesn't have the ER spindle upgrade, you'll be miserable trying to find collets for it

For 1K more you should be looking at some of the cyil mills (the X3 mentioned above comes to mind and would by my first choice), they are a LOT more rigid and similarly sized, and they run standard collets and tooling as well as having a bed that uses normally sized T slots, etc etc.

You can get a really nicely outfitted Taig brand new for around 1800 so keep in mind you are paying somewhere way north of 50% of value for a used machine.

The cyil though is manual, yes i know how to operate a manual, but my dad actually wants a mill and wants me to run it, possibly sell a few wheels on here, gvcc wheels (our club), other rc parts (since i bought a vendor star he thinks its his too:roll So if i gotta run this thing everyday after school i want a cnc so i can still work on electronics (radio mods) on the side. Just a preference thing though.

And yea i did notice how much more study the cyil looks, alot better than what a taig does.

Also what about cam/cad software. I don't know much about g-code (the little i do know i'd be better off on a manual) so a cam software would be nice.

 

[pbarsamian]

Cyil sells CNC packaged machines ready to run.

As for control software, strongly recommend Mach3, definitely best bang for the buck and one of the most versatile and well supported (via community and company) control systems available.

CAM software, lots of folks are using BObcad/cam these days, I have RAMS and think it is marginal, I had to do a lot of customization and coding to get it to do what I wanted. Mach3 has pretty reasonable canned cycles and can do most of the repetitive simple stuff, for complex outlines and really hardcore CNC needs, you'll want something more industrial for the CAM piece....

If you are doing wheels bigger than an inch, the Taig will be PAINFUL for production runs of more than 4 or 5 pieces at a time, even in CNC.

If you are thinking you'll make 2.2 wheels, you'll want something a LOT more rigid and bigger capacity....

For reference, I have a highly customized Taig with a 1/2hp VFD controlled motor, flood coolant, and 270oz in steppers, and I'm limited to about 9 ipm at .06" passes in slotting operations with a 3/16 EM for roughing medium sized parts. Taig can only use up to a 3/8" EM without significant mods and you won't be cutting fast with a mill that big on this machine...

 

[pbarsamian]

Just to add to that, you probably would be better off with a smaller CNC lathe to make wheels and then do the fancy cutouts manually with a rotary table mounted flat. Just my unprofessional opinion though.

If there's one thing I learned, CNC is NOT ALWAYS FASTER than manual milling, but I wasn't a machinist at all coming into this, I had to learn the hard way....

 

[C*H*U*D]

If you are looking to sell wheels, my advice would be to make a set for yourself, and then find a shop. no offense, but from the sounds of it you are not set up to manufacture wheels in a quantity that will turn you a profit.

Make the prototypes, test them, make changes and test again, but find a machine shop that can produce in quantity. Trying to run production on a Taig or manual mill will end in frustration.

 

[losikid]

Yea i keep trying to tell my dad this, he doesn't believe me. My current wheels i'm making, on a high dollar hass wer'e talking at least an hour per wheel, and on a benchtop cnc were talking what 4-6 hours per wheel (like my bio hazard). (I haven't programmed any other wheels so i can qoute others)

So what you guys are saying, just spend the money on a nice manual lathe and mill, then invest in all the extra doo-dads (rotary table, etc)

So accessories wise if i go manual route is

set of collets
set of end mills
turning tools
edge finder
rotary table
dro equipment (optional)
cutting oil/fluid/coolant (idk what its called)
inspection equipment (calipers, mic's, etc.)
parallels Self centering chuck (lathe)
Alum stock

Anything else i'm missing.

I will check into the syil's, maybe get on cnc zone and see if i can find a used one.

 

[rybredd]

ive allways heard smithy " believe thats right" were the best mill/lathes.....ive bouhgt a lot of tools from harbor freight that are fine if your not using them everyday for work......plus u can get coupons for h/f in a lot of magazines...think i have some for 20% off any 1 purchase...may even be 30%, not sure......their mill/lathe/drillpress looks nice tho!

 

[skipxor]

I just read this thread for the first time and it is making me want to go buy a cnc mill now!!!!!! "thumbsup"

 

[KMS]

Here's my little shop ,Bought my machine's from Grizzly ,I made lots of parts for the quarter scale guy's and still do. I found, I enjoyed making parts and building winning cars more enjoyable,Than racin them,, I had to many trophies no more room for them,, Lots of A-main wins one championship,Had a great driver running my backup car,,, I have digital read out on one mill & lathe ,, My top suggestion most highest advice is to use Tap Magic tapping fliud for tapping all holes in aluimun ,KMS

 

[ramenmeal]

I've always planned on buying a mill and lathe once I have a career and some spending money. I'm kind of curious, how expensive is upkeep on these types of machines? Blades?

 

[EddieO]

On the more home style units, upkeep is pretty cheap. My unimat lathe still works perfect to this day and I have done nothing but grease and oil a few parts.....

Bits in general, especially for the lathe are cheap.....even more if you buy a grinder and do them yourself....there are plenty of videos and tutorials on how to do it.

I would suggest buying a lathe first.....move on to a mill once you got the basics down. I've had mine for years and am still learning stuff....if I only had time to use it more.

Later EddieO