Incision Drveshafts

[Ots]

"Splines are timed to allow for driveshafts to be installed in phase"

Can anyone explain what this means? I would appreciate it. I have some to install on my VRD build and although I've seen this before I really don't understand what it means. Thanks.

 

[HumboldtEF]

It just means that you need to ensure each end matches the other (the U joints). A good trick is to make sure each side has its set screw facing the same direction. Almost all drive shafts allow for this but not all, the VP set screws will align when done correctly.

If you put them together out of phase you will get some lurching as the shafts speed up and slow down (while going straight).

This link has a few images that show the correct and incorrect phasing: Driveshaft Phasing & Its Importance

 

[Ots]

ok - thanks. I would never have thought that this was of any importance.

 

[Saltrock]

It’s crazy all the little things you can do to change the performance of these little things.

 

[JatoTheRipper]

Good video showing this.

 

[Timmahh]

no vid Jato.

 

[JatoTheRipper]

no vid Jato.

Fixed. Thanks!

 

[ferp420]

just pointing out the fact that on any 1:1 4x4 the front shafts are out of "phase"
99% of the time and i could go out and take pictures if you really dont belive me
hency why they say dont run in 4wd over 35mph under 40mph it dosent make a bit of difference unless you efed up your driveshaft angles
as shown in jatos video there is only a issue at extreme angles or high speed
not one of my crawlers goes over 35 so no vibrations no harmonics to ruin anything
im mot saying dont phase your shafts just saying its not vary important on crawlers
i usualy phase my shafts but if i forget or what ever im not gonna take it off and fix it till the next time theres another problem in that area

drive shaft angles are way more important than a in phase drive shaft

whens the last time anyone set your pinion angle on your axle or transmission

i just set the pinion angle on my 1:1 but ive never set the angle on a crawler and bad pinion angle will cause more viration than a out of phase driveshaft so most of us only address half the shaft issues anyway

 

[89Industries]

I set my pinion angles on my crawlers to minimize the angle throughout travel as much as possible. Can't always do that, particularly fronts with panhard bars and non-adjustable link mounting points.

So admittedly my experience with 1:1 4wd trucks is limited to an 86 Dodge ram charger and an 84 Toyota. Driveshafts were phased on the front on both. And both said the reason to not drive in 4wd on dry high traction surfaces was because the transfer case was locked with no differential ability. Thus you'd eat the transfer case gears.

Like driving around on pavement with your axle diffs locked where you see tires hopping and fighting each other.

 

[Radracer]

Good video showing this.

I was literally just having this issue with my rig!!! And then this video! Thank You

 

[ferp420]

I set my pinion angles on my crawlers to minimize the angle throughout travel as much as possible. Can't always do that, particularly fronts with panhard bars and non-adjustable link mounting points.

So admittedly my experience with 1:1 4wd trucks is limited to an 86 Dodge ram charger and an 84 Toyota. Driveshafts were phased on the front on both. And both said the reason to not drive in 4wd on dry high traction surfaces was because the transfer case was locked with no differential ability. Thus you'd eat the transfer case gears.

Like driving around on pavement with your axle diffs locked where you see tires hopping and fighting each other.

were the axle shafts phased on that yota unless the front had a spool and the person who built it was actually able to phase them and i dought they did they werent in phase 99% of the time

i dont need a hard surface to go over 40mph

have you ever driven with the front hubs locked even if your tcase is in 2wd the truck will vibrate like mad over 35 why cause your front axle shafts are out of phase try it

 

[ferp420]

the first truck 89 f150 axles shafts clearly out of phase also has locking hubs

second is a scout shafts clearly 90° out of phase has locking hubs

third rig k5 blazer axle shafts about 15° out of phase locking hubs

last rig 97 f150 no locking hubs full time transfercase and front cv axle shafts with a langside shaft disconect for 2wd operation

sorry some how the 97 f150 pics ended up in the middle of the k5 pic string lol

 

[ferp420]

there are times in the 1:1 world where the rear end isent pulling and you are driving on the front drive only like broken drive shaft or blown ring and pinnion like what happend to the 97f150 last time i drove it and had to drive home in front wheel drive although it has cv axles up front so it dosent hurt it over 40 but still had to use the front end to get home

a broken drive shaft on a rig with ujoints in the front axle will vibrate like mad if you drive it over 40 in front wheel drive under 40 its fine

 

[Ots]

Familiar high desert pics. Nice.

 

[89Industries]

Ferp, I think we're talking about different things. Drive shaft does not equal axle shaft in a solid axle.

Driveshaft goes from transfer case or transmission to the pinion shaft on the axle and has splined slip joint coupling in the middle that allows the length to change as the suspension goes up and down. U-joints at each end need to be phased, particularly on 1:1 because there shouldn't be much slop in the splined slip joint in the middle so the out of phase u-joints would quickly destroy stuff or vibrate. In rc trucks there's honestly probably enough slop in the splines of some trucks that out of phase u-joints might not show up as a problem.

Axle shafts in a solid axle, like you say won't be phased side to side because of the differential allowing them to rotate independently as needed. But I think what you're saying is with the front axle locked that it vibrates which likely comes from the combo of inside and outside wheels traveling different distance as well as the out of phase joints.

I did drive from northern Wisconsin to Minneapolis in my Ram charger in front wheel drive only with the rear driveshaft removed after I caught it on a rock and snapped it. No problem over 40mph, but the front didn't have a posi-traction diff though it did have auto lock hubs. I did try to take it easy though. It was my daily driver at the time.

The Toyota i have no idea. Drove it as a winter beater so minimal dry pavement, mostly snow. Combination of brake issues and the frame almost rusted through and I sold it before I sunk more money into it. Then I got smart and started riding motorcycles instead of trucks.

 

[ferp420]

ujoints are u joints dosent matter were in the system you use them they act the same in the front axle or between the tcase and axle its a fuction of 2 u joints not were the joints are located

if your ram had auto locking hubs it had a differnt kind of shaft set up most likly a center disconect and constant valocity joints instead of u joints like my 97 ford but i could be wrong dodge did some wierd stuff through out the years

 

[89Industries]

ujoints are u joints dosent matter were in the system you use them they act the same in the front axle or between the tcase and axle its a fuction of 2 u joints not were the joints are located

Not really true. Yes the u-joint acts the same but the shaft(s) connecting them are quite different in those 2 applications.
T-case to axle rotationally is 1 shaft with no method for any of the shaft to rotate at a different speed. Also the angle at each end is almost never zero(or 180 depending on how you look at it), almost never the same at each end and constantly changing.

Axle shafts is actually 2 independent shafts with a differential between them allowing the u-joints (and wheel) at each end to rotate at different speeds. Until you lock the differential. Then they become one and if driven on a dry, high traction surface will cause wear, vibration, etc. Thus the reason most street driven 4wd and AWD trucks and cars come with a limited slip differential at most in the axles and the AWD in the center diff as well.

Though with all the modern electronic controls and push button type t-case controls they can certainly do more locking and unlocking with different modes that the computer controls so people don't roach their drivetrains forgetting to unlock stuff.

I never got into the hubs themselves on my Dodge but do agree they did weird stuff.

 

[ferp420]

Not really true. Yes

your over thinking it
not saying your wrong but i dont think you understand why u joints do this or where the vibration come from loads and speeds dont have anything to do with it however they will have some affect on it usually amplifng the issues but ujoints have this issue at any speed or loaded or not

i wish i still had a shop to work out of im gonna have to pay someone to do my driveshaft damb it
i just dont have the tools anymore

 

[89Industries]

Used properly within the parameters of their design and u-joints do exactly what is needed without issue.

Are their better designs that solve the issues (like CV joints which stands for constant velocity) so you can push the limits further, absolutely.

Phasing a driveshaft is proper use of a u-joints. Having 2 u-joints on 1 shaft means that exactly the issue you talk about with the u-joint shows up with less angle and causes issues sooner.

Phasing you driveshaft will also help your suspension. If they are out of phase it tries to bind the slip joint which then adds friction not allowing it to slip and restricting the axle to move up and down as freely. Plus it adds wear creating slop in the slip joint which becomes Freeplay at the wheels since the only brake is the motor (in electric rc trucks anyway).

Best example of the limit of a u-joint as you are trying to point out is every time someone asks about the hopping and lurching when they turn the front wheels to the limit on crawlers. Really just pushing the limit of a u-joint and causing accelerated wear in multiple components. But for crawlers you want big steering angle so you sacrifice wear and tear.

Why do that on your driveshaft if you don't have to?

 

[89Industries]

Ferp, btw I am with you that these tiny trucks are just toys and none of it really matters but let's at least call out what is correct and allow people to decide whether to do it correctly or not.