kevinlongisland
The Wheels Keep Turning
There have been a number of threads on other forums about the outrageous price of the TCS Xtreme. I wrote a very lengthy response on Clodtalk and thought i would share that information here:
First, thank you for your comments toyo, there is nothing more i respect than another vendor suggesting someone else's product and defending it. thank you.
i guess the biggest downfall of the Xtreme is that it appears that you are getting nothing. but on the contrary, this is what is included:
Xtreme Parts List:
- (1) Backbone
- (4) Axle Links
- (4) Steering Links
- (2) Upper Shock Mounts
- (2) Lower Shock Mounts
- (1) ESC Plate
- (1) Battery Plate
- (1) RX Plate
- (3) Body Mounts
- (2) Top Link Mounts (Hein Joints)
- (2) 19mm Standoffs
- (2) Servo Mounts
- (4) Aluminum Spacers (Backbone to Axle Links)
plus all the hardware....
also, the material is allot more than you think. Second, the labor required to make the parts.
lets look at the material. the backbone is made from tube that’s special ordered from out-of-state. it costs $6 per foot. the backbone is about 1 1/2 feet. that’s $9 for just the material, no machining done to it. There are 3 different sets of holes in the backbone drilled at three different angles. That takes time. The simple little lower shock standoffs that you would think cost $0.20 a piece, cost me $2.50 each!!!!!! As krod clod pointed out, heim joints are damned expensive also.
Also, because demand is high, i have had to outsource some of the parts. I have someone else make me the links now, and it's costing me more money.
krod clod, thank you for your comments. you pointed out a big part of the cost. the development. also, i have spent allot of money on small batteries to test, most of which did not work and were a waste of money. that was a direct loss of a good sum of $$. who else is testing these small packs? i offer my test results freely to the community (I’m mostly on RCC and my results are there).
As for demand, like i said above, i can't keep up right now. i have a waiting list.
I hope in the future the price will go down. Also, unlike rcguy and the gecko, which has been produced for over 9 years i believe, this is a new product and a new design. Where cell phones free when they first came out? No, they were like $1000 and the size of a small laptop computer.
"A couple of 1/4" thick pieces 2"X1" That have been tapped and mounted to the arm. $3.00 at most!"
how long do you think it takes to mill the angle, then precisely drill all three holes to the correct dimensions and depth, mill a radius in the full length on the bottom, then hand tap all those holes? About 20 minutes to make that part, maybe more because we hand tap those holes and that takes time. A machinist makes how much per hour, divide that by 3 and maybe that’s the cost of the part.
halgar, thank you too for your comments.
toyo talked about time. not including the months of initial development, for about 6 weeks surrounding the introduction, i spent all my time on this project. DAY and NIGHT to get the prototype done and the first few out. then, i continued to work to make sure everything was correct and quality controlled the first couple rigs myself. assembled each one COMPLETELY on axles with servos and everything else by myself to assure everything was correct. I still QC the trucks myself when they go out, but not to the degree just described.
As far as people rushing out to get them, I can’t keep up with demand now. Also, in the competition community, i have no doubt that once people start competing with them that the Xtreme will be the chassis to beat. i have allot of comp crawling under my belt and this truck just outperforms those other rigs by a good margin. it's a design leap and i feel confident in it's performance. Also, it was never intended to look like a real truck. And anyway, does any product today look like products made 5 or 10 years ago. What did the rock crawlers of 5 years ago look like?
Some of you talked about getting allot of material with your chassis and the stick is barely any material. well, it's dirt cheap to have a water jet guy cut out a million geckos, Inets, V3s, or CX's, even if it’s more material. Maybe $4 a plate. So that’s what, 4 plates at $4, is $16, why do they charge so much? The stick backbone is $9 in material, special order from out of state, and a good amount of a machinists time. It's easy to look at something and say it's $23 in material, and 1 hours build time, without realizing what it really costs.
I charge based on the time i spend, and the cost of the material as i have to pay for them. That means paying the guy that makes the links for me, because myself, nor the machinist working with me has the time to make them. So i pay what you would pay for a set of links, etc. Also, there is one thing you guys haven’t considered. Overhead. How much does it cost for web hosting, domain names, paypal fees, packaging and shipping supplies, etc.
Well, I’m glad I read through the entire post and am finally done. I hope i have cleared some things up and answered some questions. I don't want to offend anyone, and i assure you that i am not a greedy individual charging an extraordinary amount for something I only put $23 into. Sorry if it has to be so expensive, wish I was a large manufacturer and could pop these things out and sell them to you guys for $120. But i can’t at this point. Hopefully one day. Take it easy guys and go enjoy those rocks!
First, thank you for your comments toyo, there is nothing more i respect than another vendor suggesting someone else's product and defending it. thank you.
i guess the biggest downfall of the Xtreme is that it appears that you are getting nothing. but on the contrary, this is what is included:
Xtreme Parts List:
- (1) Backbone
- (4) Axle Links
- (4) Steering Links
- (2) Upper Shock Mounts
- (2) Lower Shock Mounts
- (1) ESC Plate
- (1) Battery Plate
- (1) RX Plate
- (3) Body Mounts
- (2) Top Link Mounts (Hein Joints)
- (2) 19mm Standoffs
- (2) Servo Mounts
- (4) Aluminum Spacers (Backbone to Axle Links)
plus all the hardware....
also, the material is allot more than you think. Second, the labor required to make the parts.
lets look at the material. the backbone is made from tube that’s special ordered from out-of-state. it costs $6 per foot. the backbone is about 1 1/2 feet. that’s $9 for just the material, no machining done to it. There are 3 different sets of holes in the backbone drilled at three different angles. That takes time. The simple little lower shock standoffs that you would think cost $0.20 a piece, cost me $2.50 each!!!!!! As krod clod pointed out, heim joints are damned expensive also.
Also, because demand is high, i have had to outsource some of the parts. I have someone else make me the links now, and it's costing me more money.
krod clod, thank you for your comments. you pointed out a big part of the cost. the development. also, i have spent allot of money on small batteries to test, most of which did not work and were a waste of money. that was a direct loss of a good sum of $$. who else is testing these small packs? i offer my test results freely to the community (I’m mostly on RCC and my results are there).
As for demand, like i said above, i can't keep up right now. i have a waiting list.
I hope in the future the price will go down. Also, unlike rcguy and the gecko, which has been produced for over 9 years i believe, this is a new product and a new design. Where cell phones free when they first came out? No, they were like $1000 and the size of a small laptop computer.
"A couple of 1/4" thick pieces 2"X1" That have been tapped and mounted to the arm. $3.00 at most!"
how long do you think it takes to mill the angle, then precisely drill all three holes to the correct dimensions and depth, mill a radius in the full length on the bottom, then hand tap all those holes? About 20 minutes to make that part, maybe more because we hand tap those holes and that takes time. A machinist makes how much per hour, divide that by 3 and maybe that’s the cost of the part.
halgar, thank you too for your comments.
toyo talked about time. not including the months of initial development, for about 6 weeks surrounding the introduction, i spent all my time on this project. DAY and NIGHT to get the prototype done and the first few out. then, i continued to work to make sure everything was correct and quality controlled the first couple rigs myself. assembled each one COMPLETELY on axles with servos and everything else by myself to assure everything was correct. I still QC the trucks myself when they go out, but not to the degree just described.
As far as people rushing out to get them, I can’t keep up with demand now. Also, in the competition community, i have no doubt that once people start competing with them that the Xtreme will be the chassis to beat. i have allot of comp crawling under my belt and this truck just outperforms those other rigs by a good margin. it's a design leap and i feel confident in it's performance. Also, it was never intended to look like a real truck. And anyway, does any product today look like products made 5 or 10 years ago. What did the rock crawlers of 5 years ago look like?
Some of you talked about getting allot of material with your chassis and the stick is barely any material. well, it's dirt cheap to have a water jet guy cut out a million geckos, Inets, V3s, or CX's, even if it’s more material. Maybe $4 a plate. So that’s what, 4 plates at $4, is $16, why do they charge so much? The stick backbone is $9 in material, special order from out of state, and a good amount of a machinists time. It's easy to look at something and say it's $23 in material, and 1 hours build time, without realizing what it really costs.
I charge based on the time i spend, and the cost of the material as i have to pay for them. That means paying the guy that makes the links for me, because myself, nor the machinist working with me has the time to make them. So i pay what you would pay for a set of links, etc. Also, there is one thing you guys haven’t considered. Overhead. How much does it cost for web hosting, domain names, paypal fees, packaging and shipping supplies, etc.
Well, I’m glad I read through the entire post and am finally done. I hope i have cleared some things up and answered some questions. I don't want to offend anyone, and i assure you that i am not a greedy individual charging an extraordinary amount for something I only put $23 into. Sorry if it has to be so expensive, wish I was a large manufacturer and could pop these things out and sell them to you guys for $120. But i can’t at this point. Hopefully one day. Take it easy guys and go enjoy those rocks!
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