Super mini class

[Tomy]

I have to say I feel almost hopeless after reading some of the comments here and thinking of the future of crawling.

Let’s apply some of the principals presented here to an on road comp setting.

So we run what we brung:

Some bring on road beginner friendly, easy to set up and moderate speed Tamiya M-Chassis cars equipped with stock Tamiya 27t brushed motors.

Others bring their top of the line 4WD modified touring cars running 8.5t brushless systems.

How fun do you think these guys have competing against each other? It won’t take long before the Tamiya guys say: This really doesn’t make any sense. There’s no way we can keep up with the faster cars. Why are we even in the same race? And what would the organizer reply?: Your vehicles are no excuse for your slow speed, perfect your driving skills instead. Or go and buy a more expensive and better handling car if you are truly serious about racing with us.

We all know this doesn’t work and doesn’t happen in on road or off road racing. Drivers have most fun when competing with equal vehicles against similar skill level drivers. There and then it’s all about your driving skills. Not about in which $$ category you are competing. Having fun in a meaningful environment makes you stay and develop in the hobby. I have enjoyed Vintage Touring Racing for years with a 7 year old touring car. Racing VTR is still as satisfying as ever because we all run equal cars and its all about our driving skills.

Even to begin with, crawling is more expensive than many other rc-forms. We have the 2.2 Pro and Super Class in comp crawling where there are basically no limits to how much $$ you can spend and improve your vehicle. Also these classes have endless innovative new designs for the engineering minded hobbyists. Can we not afford to preserve one class in comp crawling for those who love the hobby, want to compete in a way that makes sense, but are on a lower budget or are not able to dedicate all their spare time to study and practice crawling? Is there no room in our hobby for drivers like this?

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

Tomy, we now have the Stock vehicle type. Last year it was called Trail class, but it is the same rules with a different name for this year. It is probably the best shot at making an environment for the new guy. I agree that typical comp classes aren't going to be a fair fight for new folks, they never have been unless the new guy has friends to coach him up and help him build.


If we really want to be honest, true comp crawlers are the pinnacle of design and dedication. There is no middle step of rig between RTR and comp crawler, there is no amateur group of drivers. It's all or nothing, which is why some folks really love it far above every other form of RC.



Also, I take no offense at any opinions or suggestions or contrary ideas in here. This is a great discussion and there will always be different points of views what "is" and what "is best".

 

[Tomy]

Fair enough, John.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

This is the stock trail vehicle document that does have the possibility of keeping it affordable. It is not a class of competition, but a vehicle definition. Whether people want to focus on Classic Comp or other forms of fun is up to them, so moving forwards we are not defining new vehicles in the context of a competition except for the gate width that can be expected. Per recommendations from all the manufacturers, we will be splitting it into 4.25, 4.75, and 6" tire height categories.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j6-3Z2Uu406cMRHTtmmzM31NHGw4NbSYl2jcZ1kYHxA/edit?usp=sharing


All events I am hosting this year will have Classic Comp, but also other challenges typically not found at rock crawling events. This doesn't mean that a 2.2S rig will be expected to sled pull, but a "Trail" vehicle will have the opportunity to try Classic Comp along with other forms of fun. At Worlds, I anticipate having two groups of people. The first will be the comp folks running traditional courses designed for their highly capable rigs, like any previous Nats or Worlds. The second will be trail folks that have a loop system that snakes around the area with various challenges like lower difficulty Classic Comp courses, hill climbs, bounty lines etc.. along the trail.

Here is the "challenge" document that may reflect this better. Notice that Classic Comp is it's own section, and I am creating specific documents regarding the courses, judging, and other pertinent details.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eSmGIrU_UY3pYhPbmv7ZrHDx35mK3g_TpGW9gEHOMsE/edit?usp=sharing


So what is the point of doing it this way and injecting the "Trail" into a Worlds final for comp crawling? Firstly, the wide majority of folks that play with crawlers these days wouldn't attend a comp crawling event. But they would enjoy a world level location where there was a less intimidating way of having fun. Not one-on-one with a judge, but just tooling down a well made trail with some scored challenges that they can try at their leisure. Secondly, these same folks have mostly never even seen a Pro judged course or real comp rig. I'll be sure that this "trail" snakes by the Worlds Finals courses so that they can see first hand why folks are cheering for the rig that just made a really rad line. Even if they don't get interested in it, they will at least get to see the most badass rigs and drivers on the planet that created the whole "trail" and "scale" scene to begin with.

 

[Erik D_lux]

So we run what we brung:

Some bring on road beginner friendly, easy to set up and moderate speed Tamiya M-Chassis cars equipped with stock Tamiya 27t brushed motors.

Others bring their top of the line 4WD modified touring cars running 8.5t brushless systems.

How fun do you think these guys have competing against each other?

This has the easiest and most simple fix that Stubs179 brought up a long time ago.

Same courses, different cars, different skill sets....

All you have to do is categorize people in as many categories as you can.

Beginner class
Novice class
Expert class

Stock class
Modified class
Unlimited class

1.9 class
2.2 class
Super class

Driveshaft class
MOA class

Dig class
No Dig class

Wraith class
Sportsman class
Scaler class

The list goes on. I think you get the idea.

All these guys and cars can run the same course. The only difference is that when you run your excel spread sheet for the winner, you categorized it into as many categories as possible. I was doing this at our local comps and its absolutely crazy that some guy can come in close to last place but place 1st in the 1.9 category (or whatever category, choose one) and he has a huge smile on his face.

This is how we got over having 1.9's, Scalers and sportman all run the same courses. Scalers were EMO that they had to compete against sportsman and that it was not fair. Once you ran some numbers through Excel and put them in different categories, they were more than happy. I could seriously make so many categories that every single person got 1st place in at least one category.

Everybody was happy. I am fine with it if people are, but at the same time it all goes back to entitlement and participation trophies. To each their own.

I do actually think it would be a great idea on national level comps to implement a couple of classes. The Beginner/Novice/Expert would work really well in this example.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

I've been wanting to have a genuine novice and Pro level for a while, and having a points system felt like a good first step. Now that things are being tracked on RC Orva we can get a leaderboard once clubs and hosts are rolling in spring. Furthermore, I think it important that Pro level is Pro judging with one-on-one judge/driver and full penalty/bonus point system as outlined in the current rules. Anything less should have much simpler scoring systems so there is no need for a vetted judge. This distinction lends itself to paying Pro judging at big events. It's a job, it is a hard job, and the skillset is very specific. I think all large events that sell tickets should have judge pay in the budget, so that the person doesn't just get a free ticket but they get hard cash too. If I set aside $3 per ticket for judges it's more than nothing, and maybe we can start getting drivers out of the judge seat too.


There is certainly some downfall to splitting things up into a million ways, but it is really the only way to get a full spectrum of comfort levels and participation options. Between Stock Mod and Unlimited vehicle types and three tire rules we have 9 options that span from a Gelande 2 to an Unlimited rig. Take the next step and add driver levels and it has the ability to reach from newb to serious driver too.

 

[Olle P]

Do we want quality or quantity? ...

Quantity => Quality!
It's within the (hopefully) huge hoard of newbies we find the next generation of masters. The fewer that try this hobby the more likely it is that potential masters won't even start.

This has the easiest and most simple fix...
All you have to do is categorize people in as many categories as you can.
All these guys and cars can run the same course. ...

Can they?
A course that's passable for a newbie with a stock shafty and still challenging for an expert MOA crawler... how do you accomplish this?

I'm all for differentiating competition classes based on experience, skill and equipment, but running the same gates seems like stretching it too far.
Optional (easier) gates for the "lesser" classes seems appropriate.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Olle,

I didnt mean to say that all classes can run on an MOA course or vice versa, I can see how it was read that way though.

Of course you would want to use your judgement on that. If there were a new guy with an MOA and a veteran with a shafty, then maybe but for the most part I would guess lesser capable vehicles like shafties would have a specific course, MOA would have theirs and super would have theirs.

Having said that, we ran scale, sportsman and 1.9 all on the same course and it was fun for all but probably not "fair" (though closer than you might think). The "fair" part was equalled out with the different scoring categories. I think this is what Holmes is talking about when he is trying to get across that there is not much difference in the cars and they can all run on the same course and have fun.

 

[Jslick]

I dont know, in my mind it has always been comp is comp and scale is scale. When we dilute the purpose of each class, we lose the focus and make things overly complicated. Comp crawlers for the most part is a builders class now more than ever. I find nothing wrong with that. That is what makes it special and to use Joel's words a "Cult". Even with a seperate point system style my MRC will stomp my scaler everytime. I like having comp and scale running at the same event. For local events run what you brung is fine. The original concept of the trail class was an attempt to grasp at straws to keep USRCCA afloat. These are all completely my opinions.

 

[Irwin Fletcher]

So I am fairly new to crawling, first crawler in 2011, but not new to RC. I have had planes, boats, and cars over the past 20+ years, with times in and out of it due to work and family. Right now I am mostly the mechanic for my wife and son on their Wheely King Crawler, RedCat, Mad Torque, and Bully Comp 2.2 MOA, all with many mods. However as my son has gotten more into crawling so have I and am looking at putting together my own crawler, still not sure what type. Would love to build a super but cost is the consideration.

What I love about crawling is the technical aspect of the driving; actually I find it similar to planes for some reason. Making the obstacles and thinking through the lines, always thinking slightly ahead. I also love the mechanical aspect and modifying of the vehicles as money allows. I really have enjoyed reading this discussion and will say right up front that I know very little compared to you all. But as I have read I felt like I may have a suggestion to offer as I am pretty new and have talked to others that seem like me, on the outer edge of crawling and seem interested in getting deeper into it. I feel that crawling seems to have a mind numbing about of diversity and classes with equal amounts of mods and upgrades. It makes it really hard to figure out what is going to work and be slightly completive, and not a waste of money.

So what about a crawler class that does its best to level the field to what the driver can do not the money pumped into the vehicle? Maybe that is supposed to be the Stock Trail Vehicle or Class 3 or 4 is all about, but even that seems to be broader than what I am thinking. The vehicle would have to be pretty much the exact same for everyone. I believe there could be minor differences. I don’t know what minor really means, but I am sure you all would. With the idea being that the average working fella/gal could go out and crawl head to head with the best and know that other than some minor mods driving skills are what separates 1st from last place. I am not even sure what the price point would be, I guess I am thinking 500.00 or so. This would be a stretch for some and pocket change for others considering what after-market has to offer. But the point isn’t the most durable highest tech rig in my opinion. The point is to get people more involved in the sport, excited about competition, and to make things more even in that class. Then let the bug bite and they can go crazy into all kinds of modified and diverse classes. Maybe something stock is pie in the sky, if so then provide a detailed list of parts/mods that would make up the “proper” rig so someone could build one. I may be wrong but I would hope that even the best drivers would take interest in a class that would test their driving skills, effectively leveled, even with a “basic” rig against their peers and the new guys. I think people coming into the sport believe they cannot compete against other rigs that many have pumped many dollars into. And I have read in the forums many times that with a skilled driver less expensive rigs can be very capable against the more advanced.

Again, I want to emphasize I think this would be a really good way to get people into the sport. Basically you have made it easy up front for a newbie to know what to do to get started. They buy/build vehicle XYZ, preform whatever mods the rules allow/dictate, and run. Hopefully they practice ahead of time but who knows. If done right parts are cheap as they break. They don’t have to worry about buying all the latest and greatest mods as they would not be allowed. They don’t have to do hours of research to try and figure out what is going to be competitive with others. They can get into the sport for relatively cheap and then branch out into the other classes. They can also test their skills against other drivers on about as level of a playing field as I can imagine.
Just my two cents, nothing more

 

[JeremyH]

A course that's passable for a newbie with a stock shafty and still challenging for an expert MOA crawler... how do you accomplish this?

Bonus gates.

 

[Olle P]

... Comp crawlers for the most part is a builders class now more than ever. I find nothing wrong with that. ...

Agree totally!
That's why newcomers will have neither the driving skill, the required hardware knowledge nor the actual hardware to win championships.
The development of driving skill and the rig you drive (the "hardware") typically goes hand in hand. (So the starting cost doesn't have to be big. The brute of the costs come later, spread over time.)

There's a need for newcomers to gain experience not only by practice on their own, but also by taking part in competitions at their level of difficulty.
With proper matching of competitors at similar "capability" (the combination of driving skill and hardware used) and suitable courses you get the most fun out of it!

Bonus gates.

I don't think bonus gates is the fix all solution.
Assuming you want the course to suit at least five levels of "capability" (as defined above) you'd:
* Need far more bonus gates than regular gates.
* Need bonus gates of different difficulty levels.
* Get a bunch of drivers hitting the time limit (and thus getting no bonus points) because of all the "mandatory" bonus gates for their capability.
* Get a huge spread in the number of "mandatory" gates to do well between the classes.

 

[holycaveman]

I am one of those "old school" guys that have not been to a comp for a while. I think a lot of people forget how it all came about and what caused a big boom in crawling for a period. And now what exactly it has become.

So i will skip to the end. It has become a "nitch" this is why the manufacturers have left it. It progressed faster than manufacturers could sell a capable rig. And now it's strictly a builders club. Even tires are custom. The learning curve is steep, the rules are tough.

Much easier to buy a scx10 and run with everyone else.

Ironically which is what started it all, scale trucks.

I remember going to comps with tri state crawlers. Bunch of tlt axled rigs with scale bodies on them. Also clod rigs. Axial came along and caused the big boom in my opinion.

Now it's scale. You can spend a little on a scale truck and actually compete. Where you used to be able to just buy an ax10 or losi.

Honestly think comp crawlers are past their prime. An with these newer scale class 3 rigs they are pretty capable. Not as comp crawlers but plenty for most.

I was all comp crawlers for a while. But times have changed. Yea my class 3 unlimited scale crawler with fr and rear winches 4ws etc... can't go where my old comp rig can go. But it's just as fun with a less capable rig.

And I guess that is my point. It's just as fun crawling in the rocks with a scx10 as it is with a full blown comp crawler. Especially to a newb.

The majority of potential comp crawler candidates are never going to hang around long enough to learn how to build a good rig. They want to buy it and drive. That is just the way this world works.

So if anything get back to basic rigs. Catch is the pro crawler guys will never go for that. LOL

 

[Robbob]

So if anything get back to basic rigs. Catch is the pro crawler guys will never go for that. LOL

Agree ..... The basics is true but I think the pro guys still would. The bigger catch is no matter what it is, it has to have rules and limits otherwise its not the basics anymore.

 

[Fishmaxx]

Bonus gates.

This has the easiest and most simple fix that Stubs179 brought up a long time ago.

Same courses, different cars, different skill sets....


All these guys and cars can run the same course. The only difference is that when you run your excel spread sheet for the winner, you categorized it into as many categories as possible..

The idea of multiple truck types on the same course works, and I am 100% sure of this.

The REQUIRED GATES are more technical in design, and the BOUNUS GATES are more physical in design.

I have done this multiple times and it simply works for multiple reasons, 1) Drivers don't want to be split into multiple groups. 2) Doesn't split club/event resources. 3) Efficient use of limited terrain situations.

This is not idea or theory that could be tried by someone else......it's something I have tried and executed successfully multiple times"thumbsup"

 

[JeremyH]

The idea of multiple truck types on the same course works, and I am 100% sure of this.

Yep. Our club does this when we have widely varying skill levels in one class. The new guys get to finish the course which is helpful to their confidence. The seasoned veterans know they must do the bonus gates if they intend on winning.

 

[SkaldidDog]

The idea of multiple truck types on the same course works, and I am 100% sure of this.

The REQUIRED GATES are more technical in design, and the BOUNUS GATES are more physical in design.

I have done this multiple times and it simply works for multiple reasons, 1) Drivers don't want to be split into multiple groups. 2) Doesn't split club/event resources. 3) Efficient use of limited terrain situations.

This is not idea or theory that could be tried by someone else......it's something I have tried and executed successfully multiple times"thumbsup"

We do this every month. All classes use the same course.

Sporty (gates 1-8 with 9 and 10 being 10pt bonuses)
Pro (gates 1-10 with 11-13 being 10pt bonuses)
RWB (any gate you care to try in any order)

All non bonus gates takeable and 1-8 must clearly be set for sporty. Given how good sporty rigs are now it's not that hard to make a hybrid sport/pro course.

One course fits all.

J

 

[Highmark]

Random thought.

Do an SCX-10 / Ascender class. No wait, hear me out - keep scale out of it, make the only rules be:

1. Has to have the full frame rails
2. Must have a stock configuration transmission
3. Must have stock-width and make axles (no XR-10 mods or anything crazy)

My reasoning is that it solves a few issues for beginners. The first being that kit is readily available to start with. The second being that how expensive of a build could you get if your limited to the trans and axles (that seems to be where most of the money is tied up)?

Part of what made comp crawling fun in the early days was that we had to make due with what we had. So make a class that limits what platform you start with, but doesn't limit what you can do with the parts you have.

 

[cboggs]

Random thought.

Do an SCX-10 / Ascender class. No wait, hear me out - keep scale out of it, make the only rules be:

1. Has to have the full frame rails
2. Must have a stock configuration transmission
3. Must have stock-width and make axles (no XR-10 mods or anything crazy)

My reasoning is that it solves a few issues for beginners. The first being that kit is readily available to start with. The second being that how expensive of a build could you get if your limited to the trans and axles (that seems to be where most of the money is tied up)?

Part of what made comp crawling fun in the early days was that we had to make due with what we had. So make a class that limits what platform you start with, but doesn't limit what you can do with the parts you have.

I would rather see those ideas for the ax10's (original and deadbolt) and Losi Night Crawlers, rail chassis' belong in scale IMO. Why is everyone so set on getting rid of the comp style cars and replacing them with scale chassis' and bodies? Shouldn't we be trying to promote the comp cars instead of replacing them with scale?

 

[Highmark]

I would rather see those ideas for the ax10's (original and deadbolt) and Losi Night Crawlers, rail chassis' belong in scale IMO. Why is everyone so set on getting rid of the comp style cars and replacing them with scale chassis' and bodies? Shouldn't we be trying to promote the comp cars instead of replacing them with scale?

Hey whatever floats your boat. :ror:

I only went the scale chassis route because it seemed fun and accessible to start with a chassis that isn't terrible. The ax10 and losi chassis are crappy versions of real comp chassis so making people use those just seemed depressing.

But Im weird, id also like to see a cludbuster / juggernaut axle class or a tlt class. I want to relive the early days damnit.