Super mini class

[JohnRobHolmes]

Forget about trail, comp, and scale names. It will help a lot.

 

[Solitaire]

Im stilling trying to fish through and get caught up on all this cross-pollination of scale/trail and comps. Thats probably were Im getting lost on things.

Yep, it's getting more confusing every day and yes, this topic has gotten way off track.

My thinking of Erik's suggestion is a completely outfitted 1.9 that is a rock crawler...not a trail rig. Not sure one can get all the electronics into a 1.9 chassis, but I've never owned one, so I need to be schooled on that.

I also don't think that will entice a lot of beginners as it'll likely be similar in cost to a 2.2 Pro rig, but could be fun truck for the seasoned drivers/builders.

 

[winnerone23]

I don't think cost would be all that bad..
At minimum, a mrc with 2 steering axle's.. Pretty cheap to do.. Servos can be something cheap with around 200oz.. One esc, Br mini, sw micro, bec, etc..

Of course it can be modified from there.. The only extra electronics in the chassis would be a second bec, in the above situation..

 

[johnnyh66]

Wheels/tires are about the only high $$ item on a mini... and Everty's motor.

 

[Solitaire]

Erik mentioned dig in his second post. There's room for that along with everything else?

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

My thinking of Erik's suggestion is a completely outfitted 1.9 that is a rock crawler...not a trail rig.

What is your distinction between a rock crawler and trail rig? I've thrown different tires and a bigger battery on a comp rig many times to run it down a trail. Do you mean building / tuning the rig for Classic Comp gate running specifically?


I'll say it again, forget the names crawler, trail, scale, etc... Don't get hung up on those words and focus on HOW the toy off road vehicle will be used.

 

[Solitaire]

Yes, there is a definite distinction between a gated rock course and a trail run and I'll build my trucks accordingly. There's no way I'm going to waterproof my "comp crawlers" eg: classic gated rock course truck. They just weren't built for wet and muddy terrain. Tires, electronics location and battery size are the main differences.

To me the terms "crawler" and "trail truck" are accepted names in the industry and both have different uses and construction.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

A trail can be made of 100 gates or ten. Your answer is right though, industry standard words. The term crawler hasn't been used to name new vehicles for years. Everything 4wd can be trail worthy. But it takes a special rig and driver to be an optimized comp crawler searching for tennis balls, otherwise it is just rock bouncing. Crawler is also tied with slowness, not exactly a selling point these days. But few run slow systems in comp crawlers lately anyway, it's as speedy as ever.

I'm playing Devils advocate here so we can pick apart how the definitions work against us. While I don't think there is any question about what a comp crawler is in here, outside of this circle you wouldnt be wrong to call it a trail truck, or off road vehicle, 4x4, or a multitude of other not so specific descriptions. Point being, don't let words like scale Or trail or comp enforce hard rules about what you feel like you are a part of.

 

[Tomy]

This has been my best thought of action as well. Don't do it now, but make it clear that next season there will be chassis mounted transmission requirements.

Can we expect a final decision on this in either direction in the near future?

 

[Olle P]

I don't think the Sporty's today are killing the class for beginners, ... I also think you can build a competitive sporty on a budget. Beginners don't need to go buy all new items, they can compete with used equipment just like anyone and do well. ...

I both agree and disagree...

* "Can build a competitive sporty on a budget"
Yes it can be possible...
- Either the competition is very low level, with all drivers at such low experience that the rig's limitations barely plays a part, or
- You have had many years in the hobby to collect knowledge about what to use to suit YOU (and left-over parts from previous projects). For a beginner this is impossible!

* "Can compete with used equipment."
Yes, you (the beginner) can jump on the lottery and buy a randomly selected used rig from "Honest Jim". With some luck that rig will have been competitive when used by its former owner, and with even more luck it will be easily adaptable to fit your driving style.

Ive read through so many sportsman build threads to catch myself up on things and I will say sportsman rigs are damn near the cost of a pro rig. Both by looking and by doing the math. ...

For the top end you're correct.
My rig isn't even near that top end, but adding up the money spent on it since I began with this hobby in october 2011 (including parts later broken or rejected, shipping costs, and some supplimental equipment required) I end up close to $2,000 (above or below is hard to say).
If I were to start all over now I could do it cheaper, but that's only because I now have the knowledge and experience what parts fit my needs. (And >$100 could be shaven off by not opting for good looks.)

For me the key is that for a beginner starting with no equipment and no driving experience the development of his/her crawler goes hand in hand with ackumulated driving time.
It's thus not only a matter of money but also of TIME, and a rookie won't become competitive on a higher level without spending both. (And since the cost is spread over at least a couple of years it's manageable to many, if it's given sufficient priority.)

We offer a Novice class... We build moderate courses that give them the ability and chance to finish, ...

I think this is what is required to attract new drivers. Competitions suited for their skill level (and not requiring top end equipment)!
With limited numbers of drivers in the comp (*) it's also good to use the rule that once you point out on a gate you move on to the next gate instead of not being allowed to continue on the course. This allows the drivers to attempt the most gates possible (thus gaining most experience) within the time limit.

If we concentrate on the monetary side of things I think the main objective to attract new drivers should be to minimize their cost of finishing their first course!
A brand new AX10 Deadbolt or Losi Night Crawler, plus battery and charger is about $400. These are the only "good" options for buying brand new.
You can have less capable crawlers, like Maverick Scout, at about half of that price.
- $400 is a steep entrance to many.
- $200 is much easier.
- Borrow (or rent at a low fee) a rig from another driver is even easier on the wallet.
So where do we set the "entrance fee"?

(*) If too many drivers want to join in, refuse those that have the most experience. Use these as referees instead!

 

[Erik D_lux]

Just remembered this too thinking more about the run what you brung theory ..... OG's should remember this one. Who had the comp truck that stretched and shrank? I think the chassis was some sort of cork screw he could go long or short depending on what gate he was at.

how quick did that change the rules? How many people argued the original Stick chassis should be banned?

I guess Im saying the run what you brung is a sketchy area. Bringing creativity back is one thing but I think this generation we are seeing in the rc world is more accustom to the RTR world. They just wanna buy it ready or buy the parts to have someone put it together.

You need limits in anything. Sorry for the winded post .....

What are/were the benefits that you can see to banning the cork screw?

 

[Erik D_lux]

I think there is good discussion in here whether or not it has to do with a potential class. I think there are a lot of ideas and problems that need to be talked over or this whole "crawlin" thing will die.

As for the price of these cars, I already said it but I will say it again. Winning in this hobby has nothing to do with the price of your car. You could take a stock Berg or XR or anything out of the for sale section for cheap and go win with it if you practice.

The idea of a new guy being disappointed by not winning and being discouraged by the cost is similar to me showing up to the Tour de France in Levi's and my 1970 Schwinn. Should I go to the competitors and the event coordinators and complain because I will most likely come in last place? How about manning up and practicing and buying some competitive gear?

Take that same analogy and lets give Lance Armstrong that Schwinn and put him in his Sunday best. Now give me his bike and his Lycra. Do you think I am going to beat Lance? If not, I know I am going to go pout in the corner until somebody caters to me and adjusts the sport until its so diluted that I still complain and its no longer interesting to people like Lance.

Maybe at the comps now we can all pitch in and pay higher costs for comps so we can buy participation trophies, make the courses so easy that most get perfect scores and the event coordinators can get a megaphone and repeat "You are all such special people, you are all driving so good today, you are all winners". Ok, maybe this rant was not needed. I just get frustrated with everybody thinking that everything should come to them rather them going and getting it. What ever happened to that bumper sticker.... "Ass, cash or grass, nobody rides for free"?

I think we are at a fork in the road. I hope I dont sound like I am talking down to anybody's ideas who are trying to make things happen. I see things moving forward and I appreciate the help. I think we do need to look at where we want to be though.

Do we want quality or quantity?

Quality = guys who are hard core, no complaining, show up every time, put effort into setting up/scores. Quantity is usually the guys who show up, dont do much, complain about everything and worst off, bring overall moral down.

We still have a lot of quality guys but I see them getting burned out. I personally dont think we are going to pull quantity by making things easier or more scale, I think making things this way will only push more quality guys away and then you have no core. This is just opinion of course but its a risky move IMO to not cater to the quality guys first and foremost. Really, the quality guys is what youre begging to have eventually, right? So why risk losing one more of what you already have? If you make courses easy and generally hold hands to all the new guys, what type of culture are you setting up for the future? The new guy today is the leader of tomorrow. You will have an entire pool of entitled guys and no hard cores around.

Speaking of bringing moral down, I am not sure what it is about this hobby but there are many people who are "old school" and have not gone to comps in years or even drive cars anymore but they still seem like hang around and taint the pool with their negativity. Its as if they dont like it or cant have it, then nobody can. I sure wish they would change their attitude or go away.

 

[SkaldidDog]

Erik, will you be my Valentine?

J

 

[Robbob]

What are/were the benefits that you can see to banning the cork screw?

Double sided sword .... one side that driver got penalized for thinking outside the box. His creativity, and reading the rules, got him to build a truck that could win. That's what we like right? That's what we want but then theres the effect to allowing that.


Other side ..... how long before people starting building trucks the same way but longer and we start climbing 4' walls on courses? Where do you draw the line? Even the Super class has rules. At what point does it get out of control and to late to pull it in with out causing riffs?

As for the price of these cars, I already said it but I will say it again. Winning in this hobby has nothing to do with the price of your car. You could take a stock Berg or XR or anything out of the for sale section for cheap and go win with it if you practice.

Totally Agree with you on this!! Practice made Austin who he was years ago, not just spending a whole lot of money on parts. BUT..... in reality for every single driver you have practicing Im willing to bet theres 3 in the wings that expect to buy the same thing and do as good. Then get mad when theyre broke and in last place.



Do we want quality or quantity?

Quantity will bring quality? An unlimited/run what you brung no matter what size truck it is isn't gonna bring more people its just gonna bring more trucks. IMOpinion you will just get a class of those who can afford and/or physically create such a beast. You wont get new guys. I know the Quantity type of guys your talking about too, Agree its usually 1 or 2 times a year they come out and think they can crawl anything then lose and its always someone elses fault.


Bring a class that caps things like chassis, motors, drivers and such that will help drive growth 'I think'. Yes it is cost and skill .... chassis limited to G10 or Stock (no cf material keeping cost down) ... No sponsored drivers of any sort, heck do like racing and narrow it down to even no branding on vehicles bodies .... keep motors brushed and even inside a dollar range for that matter .... Show the new blood theres a lesser expensive way into the hobby and if they wanna creep the wallet up then they do it.

There needs to be a clear distinction between PRO class and a Novice/2.2S/what ever you would call it class imo. That should/could/will drive growth I believe.

I applaud all the efforts and ideas to growth in the hobby but crossing families between scale and comp doesn't feel like the right way. Scale rigs aren't dieing, the manufacturers know it too. Comp rigs though .....

Same here though - Im not digging at anyone in my ramblings. I love discussions about growth in a sport and trying to improve it.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Erik, will you be my Valentine?

J

Without question Joel, without question.

Other side ..... how long before people starting building trucks the same way but longer and we start climbing 4' walls on courses? Where do you draw the line? Even the Super class has rules. At what point does it get out of control and to late to pull it in with out causing riffs?

I think 4' walls would be sweet. I am just trying to understand the other side of the coin because I think you should let technology and ideas thrive, not be suppressed. I dont get why you would not allow a cork screw. What is the down side?

I think a lot of the reason I dont get something like the cork screw not being allowed is because I think there are at least two different types of people that drive these cars.

I drive them because I like the physics, I like hands on building and the thought process of how to solve a problem whether that be getting up a hill with a cork screw or how to make a car lighter.

My best guess to the other types (a majority actually) is that people like to play with cars. I am not talking down to anybody here, just trying to say that some are like playing with toys where there is a small group that likes to solve problems. I am not sure that makes sense? I will work on it.

I think the guys who like to play with cars have issues with the cork screw because they want to play with cars. A "real car" does not really have a cork screw (but could) so I dont want mine to have one. If I dont want one, I dont want anybody else to have one because they will beat me in a comp.

I want to drive more robot than car I guess but I do get it wanting to be car'ish meaning no tracks or claws, just 4 wheels to the ground. We all have our ideas and I think this is where we are all getting frustrated because we all want others to have the same things that we want.

Scale rigs aren't dieing, the manufacturers know it too. Comp rigs though .....

I dont agree with this. I know this is the theme though. I have a bit different perspective though too.

If you look at the scale sections, they are not moving so fast, same as the comp sections.

My comp sales increase every year, including last year.

Comps are dead here but so are scale comps.

I think what it boils down to is that people do not want to compete, I think they are just fun crawling whether that be comp or scale.

 

[Krawler Kev]

...
Speaking of bringing moral down, I am not sure what it is about this hobby but there are many people who are "old school" and have not gone to comps in years or even drive cars anymore but they still seem like hang around and taint the pool with their negativity. Its as if they dont like it or cant have it, then nobody can. I sure wish they would change their attitude or go away.

This sums it up pretty well.

Paging the Violator in 3.....2......

 

[Robbob]

Comps are dead here but so are scale comps.

I think what it boils down to is that people do not want to compete, I think they are just fun crawling whether that be comp or scale.

My local racing place has an indoor setup that over the last 2years I have seen just grow both space wise and driver wise. Your right I think on the point that it seems like people just wanna fun crawl more but is it helping the sport or does that make them the 'Quantity'.


What would you rather do or see done ..... someone hit a toggle and stretch out to 5' to climb a 4' wall OR watch someone figure out how to make a 12.5'' truck over come that wall?


The corkscrew to me is cheating the system I guess. I like seeing people have to 'think' about whats in front of them at that time and figure out a way around it .... not just flip a switch and become something they weren't a minute ago just to get around it.

The LCC was the fun days - how hard did LCC drivers have to drive to run courses with MOA's? That's the kind of challenges I like. How easy would it have been to just flip a switch and make that thing 4' tall just to belly over stuff lol.

 

[Solitaire]

Since we've strayed from the original topic a number of times, I'll carry on.

...Do we want quality or quantity?

We need a nice mix of both. Every competitive sport needs the "quality" guys to keep the organization running and also give the lesser members something to shoot for. We also need bigger numbers. How many clubs are down to a handful of drivers that are now a bit tired of organizing and competing against the same 4 or 5 other drivers? We have to concentrate on not just attracting new people, but keeping their interest level up so they can continue to carry the torch. No, this is not new news and has been discussed many times in other threads.

Crawler clubs should be like teams. Each member needs to willingly contribute and do whatever they have to to keep the club healthy.

Idealistic? Maybe. Realistic...who knows?

Now, I've seen a nice trend happening lately (maybe happened before but I didn't notice) where clubs are travelling to other club's comps and this is a great way to keep things interesting for all involved. Harvo just had a comp in the east that attracted drivers from clubs in other states. Borderline Crawlers has attracted other California drivers. Looks like Diamond Dave is trying to get a few AZ clubs competing and WARCRC in WA has attracted a few drivers from BC. All good and very healthy for the crawler community.

Why Utah (or maybe it's just SLC) can't get their clubs active is way beyond me. There's drivers in 30 other states that would die to be in the middle of the rock formations Utah has to offer.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

I wouldn't say that comp crawling is dying either, although attendance and numbers in the US have declined overall there is more growth in other countries that make up for the difference. We sold more Puller brushed motors in 2014 than total handwounds from 3 years prior.

 

[MRCrackhead]

I love the idea of the MOA sportsman rigs being built. They are freaking cool. If they are superior by design, then I'll be kinda bummed out cuz I don't have one......yet....suppose I'll have to build one to "keep up".

Mini Super.....I'd be interested in building one. Sounds very cool. I love my mini, but it could use another inch in wheelbase, and dig......that would be cool.

Some rules, or no rules at all.....I just can't decide where I stand. It would seem that motor mixing or not would be a big one (or a dig unit), they are just so completely different.

Otherwise, wheelbase and track width seem kinda silly. Erik is right that the guys that are winning will decide what happens there.

On the subject of changing rules and classes, who exactly does that? I'm a noob and just curious. Is there a great hall of old gray men atop a boulderfield somewhere casting their tyrannical rule upon us, or is it decided on the ground, by what the clubs are doing?