"Sportsman" class feedback

[Grizzly4x4]

Hey guys, the rules committee is looking into ideas for a "Novice" or "Sportsman" (whatever you want to call it) class. The idea is that this new class would be a way to start out crawling without as much expense and the vehicle could be easily upgraded for Class 2 (2.2 class) competition.

This thread is what has inspired alot of this:

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202095

Based on the proposal below post up your thoughts, feedback, and ideas for rules.
I have highlighted a few rules in Chevellians post that may be good topics for discussion.

The Sportsman class in our club is by far the most popular. We are a smaller club, and we really are more out to have a fun than anything else.
Here are our sportsman rules:


2.2 Sportsman Class Rulesadded for 2009)


If a 2.2 Sportsman Class vehicle violates any of the following requirements it must run in Class 2.2 or 2.2 unlimited respectfully. Any vehicle competing in the 2.2 Sportsman class will not be allowed to compete in another class and vice versa. These are " Club Rules " and can be Modified or adjusted at any time as long as it is for the good of the class.
1 - Vehicle wheelbase is limited to a maximum of 12.5 inches. This is determined by measuring from centerline of front axle stub to centerline of rear axle stub, with all the wheels pointing straight ahead, with the vehicles suspension holding it's own weight.
2 - Vehicle track width is limited to a maximum of 12.5 inches. This is determined by measuring the bottom of the outer most edge of the front and rear tires while the vehicle is sitting on level ground.
3 - Vehicle is limited to 2.2 inch wheels/rims at the bead surface. Wheels may be modified provided that the tire bead surface does not exceed 2.2 inches in diameter. Tires may NOT be modified from other sized tires, They must be a readily available 2.2 size tire with a maximum outside diameter of 6 inches. no Cutting on tire for any reason. Addition of custom foams and or weight is allowed
4 - Vehicles are limited to 2-wheel steering on front axle only.
5 - Vehicles are limited to the use of a 2 channel radio control (one for steering & one for throttle ) only. Neither channel can be used to perform more than one function. Radio systems with more than 2 channels are allowed but only 2 channels can be used to control the vehicle.
6 - Vehicles are limited to 1 ESC & 1 servo only.
7 - Vehicles are limited to 1 motor powering both of the axles. Exceptions will be made for RTR vehicles that came factory equipped with dual motors such as the Duratrax cliff climber and similar vehicles. No Berg, Clod or similar axles allowed
8 – No driver controlled devices, other than steering and throttle control, will be allowed. Independent throttle control to the front or rear axles (“burn” or “dig”), winching down the axles, and forced articulation are not allowed in this class. Vehicle is allowed to have a " dig " transmission but you will be disqualified if you use it
9 – A battery is limited to 8.4 nominal voltage (7 cell nimh/nicd & 2 cell lipo/limoly).
10 - If at any point during a run your vehicle falls out of these vehicle specs for any reason you will be required to take a touch penalty and correct the problem.
11 - body must be 3” minimum height on sides. No less than 12.5” total length and full original width, and no less than 5” in the center. All bodies should resemble its original form (Jeep bodies look like a Jeep)
12 - 2.2 Sportsman class bodiless overall dimension of the complete chassis must be at least 8"overall length, 3" overall width, and 3.75" overall height.

 

[Rubbaneck]

I like the idea a lot. I hope they dont have to run on the Comp 2.2 style courses, that would be bad IMO. "thumbsup"

 

[jason]

The intention is to run on easier courses.

The intent is to give newbies a place to get started and then work up to the 2.2 class.

It's a "gateway" class.

 

[engineerjoe]

I like te idea except for the 8.4 voltage max.
If these are meant to be a stepping stone to the 2.2 class you're going to have to buy new batteries when you make the switch.

 

[TURTLE]

The intention is to run on easier courses.

The intent is to give newbies a place to get started and then work up to the 2.2 class.

It's a "gateway" class.

I thought thats what the Hobby Town comps were for?

 

[slowrockr]

:shock::ror::lmao:

Good idea but, my concern would be time. We push it already to finish 3 classes in a day, add another class that needs more courses setup, another finals run, and we'll need some portable lighting.

 

[cato]

I second Slow's comments about time...that's my only real concern..otherwise move forward...8)

 

[Grizzly4x4]

Here are some suggestions I thought of.

3 - Vehicle is limited to 2.2 inch wheels/rims at the bead surface. Wheels may be modified provided that the tire bead surface does not exceed 2.2 inches in diameter. Tires may NOT be modified from other sized tires, They must be a readily available 2.2 size tire with a maximum outside diameter of 6 inches. no Cutting on tire for any reason. Addition of custom foams and or weight is allowed
I do not agree with limiting it to unmodified tires.
I also wondered about limiting the tire size to 5". This would further distinguish the vehicles from Class 2 and without dig a smaller tire works better anyway I think because you can't use dig to get the front tires to bite.
- I would like to vote on a tire size limit of 5".
- I would like to vote on modified tires being allowed.

7 - Vehicles are limited to 1 motor powering both of the axles. Exceptions will be made for RTR vehicles that came factory equipped with dual motors such as the Duratrax cliff climber and similar vehicles. No Berg, Clod or similar axles allowed
I see the point here, the intention was to allow the Cliff Climber but keep other MOAs out. I'd say that this needs to be a shafty only class unless we can find a suitable way to handicap a MOA to equal a shafty with no dig.
- I would like to vote on this class not allowing MOA axle designs.

8 – No driver controlled devices, other than steering and throttle control, will be allowed. Independent throttle control to the front or rear axles (“burn” or “dig”), winching down the axles, and forced articulation are not allowed in this class. Vehicle is allowed to have a " dig " transmission but you will be disqualified if you use it
Why not a suck down winch?
- I would like to vote on allowing a suspension suck down winch for the front axle only.
- I would like to vote on allowing 3 channel radios if suck down winches are allowed.

9 – A battery is limited to 8.4 nominal voltage (7 cell nimh/nicd & 2 cell lipo/limoly).
This rule I dislike. We tried it in Class 3 and all it did was force you to go buy a better motor because the Losi MRC motor gives no wheelspeed.
However, in this Class it might work. With RTR's coming with 55T motors they would crawl decent.
To go along with this rule I'd say limit the KV of the motor to 1000KV (55T or higher brushed 540) motors. This would eliminate the disadvantage of not buying an expensive motor.
- I would like to vote on limiting the battery to 8.4 nominal volts.
- I would like to vote on limiting the motors to 1000kv (55T or higher brushed 540)

Those are my thoughts.

 

[jason]

:shock::ror::lmao:

Good idea but, my concern would be time. We push it already to finish 3 classes in a day, add another class that needs more courses setup, another finals run, and we'll need some portable lighting.

If your club is short on time and if your club does not have the interest to run this class then you aren't forced to run it.

 

[Rubbaneck]

Good points Griz.

Here's a few opinions:

Tires I say run what ya brung. It's going to be hard to find a tire under 5" in the future I bet. Plus this makes a loop hole, what if I ran something over 5" without a foam? My tire woud be under 5" on the rocks but with foam it's over.

Keep the radios at 2 channels only. This will only make it more exspensive if the "Sportsman" wants to compete.

Keep the batteries at 8.4v or 2c lipo. If you allow 3c and unlimited voltage you'll have to buy a new ESC and batteries to compete. The new Losi Night Crawler, Axial RTR, HPI wheely king all have ESC's that work with this 8.4v rule. Plus the course will be Sportsman friendly so a high torque set up might not be the key.

 

[skid plate]

Here's my vote;...........1. One motor, one servo.2. Shaft driven only.3. Only two channels to be used on the radio and receiver.4. Tires may be modified but not to exceed 6'' dia., or 2.2 wheel size.All other measurements, body, WB, width, etc. must conform as previously stated.5. Two cell Lipo or 8.4volt max......................................No limit on motor, servo strength, BEC, etc.......................................JC8)

 

[DeaDShorT]

How did the 1st comp work with Super and 1.9 running simultaneously?

2.2 has gotten so big, I would think running another class side by side with them would be tough. Running Super, 1.9, and sportsman at the same time would be tougher yet. I agree with Jay...I don't think putting sportsman on the unlimited 2.2 courses is going to keep people coming back for more.

What about shared rigs? Say I show up with both my boys and the niece and everyone wants a shot at driving...not that I would...that could drag a comp out until the cows come home and we've all scrambling for flashlights and lanterns. Something to think about, there will be father/son/daughter, brothers and buddies coming out of the woodwork for a "beginner" class.

 

[slowrockr]

If your club is short on time and if your club does not have the interest to run this class then you aren't forced to run it.

Oh I understand that, just saying if we ran it and it became popular we'd be hard pressed to finish in 1 day. I vote ditch the piss ant class and go with this one. "thumbsup"

 

[BSTcrawler]

i crawl with chevellian, so i understand our sportsman rules. anyway, its not like everyone has to follow those rules. each club big or small can have different rules. its a class for people who are just gettin into crawling and its for the guys who have been crawlin for a while and have enough parts to build up a truck. if you dont agree with SVSC's sportsman rules, thats fine, what we run is what we run. you can change them for your club's sportsman class. im not trying to be a smarta**, its cool to compete without using digs and MOA's

 

[Almighty Malach]

1. 5" tall tires, modifiable on PLASTIC rims
2. 1 servo, 1 motor only. No winch down, dig etc.
3. 8.4 volt cap
4. Like engineer Joe stated in the other thread- have an option to buy someone's rig for $250 or $300 right after the comp. Maybe no rx/tx but otherwise RTR to keep it more of a spare parts/conglomeration class like it used to be.
5. Plastic shocks maybe? Unless the rig comes in the box with al shocks, just to keep costs/weight down
6. No BTA, or aluminum knuckles or axle c's, rear axle lockouts.

I'm pretty excited for this class, maybe run 2.2 and sportman at the same time with harder/easier gates for each class? Then you would only need 3 or 4 judges but still get all the rigs through

 

[monkeyracer]

I like the idea of this class, I wish I had it before I did all my upgrades.

Here's what I would do:

Tires - anything that can be purchased goes (under 6") partly because the rovers are so cheap right now, limiting to 5 would exclude them, and the sedonas and the new panthers, etc.

Motors - I'd say metal moas are excluded, if you want to run your cliff climber, go ahead. With a 2 channel limit, you're not getting dig, and I don't think the CCs are going to start dominating the sportsman class.

Voltage - keep it 8.4, the sportsman class is an entry level class, if you want to move up to the 2.2 or unlimited, you're going to need to upgrade a whole lot more than just the batteries anyway.

I like casey's suggestion on no BTA as well. Plastic wheels would be a good thing, but if someone "inherits" aluminum wheels from a friend because they broke their plastic ones, I wouldn't want to see them excluded from running.

Also, I'd maybe add a stipulation on servo torque. Although it would be hard to enforce on off-brands, we all know what certain servo's can dish out. I'd say limit it to 150oz-in or 180oz-in or so.


As far as time to compete:

Run them the same time as 1.9's (and supers) and allow those with only a 2.2 or 2.2 Unlimited to judge for a free entry fee to their own class.
This would allow the "judge" to give pointers to the newbs on their driving, and allow them to progress with their skills. This would also keep the other judges from taking time from judging the 1.9 and soops.

I feel like the novice class will be a small # of drivers, most guys that run now already qualify for the 2.2 normal class, so it would only take a few more minutes to set up a novice course or modify the other courses for novices.

I do kind of agree with casey as well on the last part about running the same time as 2.2s, regardless of what class they are in, they'll need to be judged, so whether it's on the hard course or the easy course, it shouldn't take that much more time.

I'd say give it a shot at the comps and see how it goes. Maybe run them after the other classes so they can watch the other guys and how they tackle certain obstacles.

I'm very interested to see how we end up doing this here.

 

[chrisjlittle]

For the tires I say 6" max size, no cut and shut but allow modification of the tread. This gives guys with less competitive tires a shot at getting a little extra without spending too much more money and also doesn't block out guys who have RTR's with taller tires (the wheely king and crawler king both come with tires taller than 5")

I also don't see a suck down winch being a big enough advantage that it would outclass newbs. I've had one and it's cool, but it's not a big enough difference to totally bar new guys from a shot at the podium. Why do you think so few people have them? I say a no dig rule is good enough, allow suck down.

I am all for banning MOA entirely. The CC itself is bad enough to negate the advantages of MOA, but making the rules committee rule on each new rig that comes out is silly. It's far more reasonable and professional to simply state what is and is not allowed in a class in clear terms and stick to it.

The 8.4v limit is fine with me."thumbsup"

Limiting the KV of a motor is difficult. What if the judge suspects someone's slipped a 35t arm in a 55t can? Will the tech stand have to include a motor dyno? I don't see it being a problem with our club, but it will end up being a bunch of bullshit drama on the board at some point if it's implemented. Knowing the bunch of whiners on the board, it will probably involve personal attacks on someone or another. Fawk that.

*EDIT* I oppose servo torque limits on the same grounds. I don't want to have to have some damn torque measuring machine stalling servos out on the tech stand.

*EDIT 2* I don't mean to make it sound like the mod's aren't doing their jobs, they are. We just have a bunch of people on the board with sand in their pussies. It just occurred to me this might be taken wrong, please don't

I suggest the motor limit be 540 size (or silver can) brushed motors with not more than 3 poles. No brushless, no cobalt motors of any kind, no 550's. Brushed 540's have already had plenty of R&D time and the very best motors are still not enough better than a 55t integy to make the cheapy unusable in competetition. The rule can be reviewed when brushless motors start coming in RTR's. I also don't want to make RTR AX-10 owners have to buy a 55t, they should be able to at least compete out of the box, and it's techable with a visual inspection.

*another edit* I think the truck puller rules may have a dollar amount limit on the motor. That might achieve what you're trying to do by limiting the KV.

 

[666]

I like it and I can do it.

I don't like voltage limits, motor limits, servo power limits, tire limits(like anything over 6" will help you) maybe a overall length from front of tire to rearmost of rear tire instead?

Only 2 channels on any radio. Steer and power.

No dig.

Shaft only.

2.2 rims can be plastic or metal that shouldn't matter?

No chassis limit.

Oh and make sure this one gets through, no limits on wheelbase in Supers.

 

[Almighty Malach]

Oh and make sure this one gets through, no limits on wheelbase in Supers.

Amen brotha8)

 

[BigSki]

I belong to the same club as chevellian, crawl4life and BST crawler. At our comp last Sunday, we only had 4 rigs compete in 2.2 comp and ( I think) 10 rigs in our Sportsman class! We have guys specifically scrounging old AX-10 parts and used electronics just to throw a rig together for cheap and compete with it.

When we layed out the courses on Sunday, we had 2 seperate 2.2 courses. We layed them out so that comp rigs ran in one direction and the Sportsmans ran it in the opposite direction. It isn't as hard as it sounds to lay out the courses like this, a drop off in one direction for a sportsman is a climb for a comp rig in the opposite direction. Once the courses are set up, we divide up into seperate groups. One group will start w/ the sportsman rigs on one course and the other group will start running sportsman rig on the other course.

If a driver gets called to run the other group, but is busy running a different class, we simply start someone else until the driver is ready to run. This helps keep the comp day as short as possible. Everyone will either keep score or call a few runs, that way everyone has a bit of free time to charge batteries or watch another class run a course.