RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

[winnerone23]

I think the schedule is a good idea. This way judges arent stuck on course all day with no breaks or reprieve. However, the main issue i have with this system is that 9 judges are calling the shots on this course. At 18 different time slots. Imo thats too many eyes with too much variation. The scheduled hours and time on course is an idea i can get behind and should be standard for any event where more than 25 drivers are planning to attend. But for the sake of consistency in my opinion i think there can be no more than 4 judges making calls on the course.

Youd never see referees or umpires changing out in the middle of a game for any sport at any level.

Erik is going to see it in full swing.. maybe then, a better judge-ment call can be made..

 

[VMGontheRocks]

What about 2 hour time slots. 4 judges for 2 hours a piece covers you for 8 hours. When the judges switch, they walk the course and discuss boundary lines and such.

 

[winnerone23]

Like judge A and B start the day.. 1 hour in, judge C shows up and B stays.. 3hrs in, A comes back and judge B is done for the day. Judge's A and C finish the morning out.. this is figuring a 4 hour course open time..

It breaks things up, there is consistency, and you have time to chat and drive..

Change the times for 4 judges in 8hrs?

What about 2 hour time slots. 4 judges for 2 hours a piece covers you for 8 hours. When the judges switch, they walk the course and discuss boundary lines and such.

The above example would add consistency..

 

[Erik D_lux]

There is a huge problem with too many judges on the same single course. I know I can judge differently from course to course so I know people other than me will judge differently also.

I have been to many self judging events. From EVERY event, I could probably name 5 different situations where it changed the overall podium of those events. Thats at every event! That means at every one of those events, the results were not accurate. Accurate, hell, not even realistic in some cases. People got robbed! Many even changed the top 3 significantly! In that case, why are we even judging?!

Imagine having a hard climb where you are on a slope and have to dig. Nobody's drag brake can hold them 100% and there is a little bit of the rear tires going backwards with every hit of the dig switch. One guy could hit a driver 20x for reverses and one judge lets that one go. This call happens all the time and its fine either way as long as its the same for every driver. With different judges, it wont be the same and 20 points could really hurt a guy.

Now imagine that there is a hard gate and you have to straddle one of them but even doing that is hard. I am hardcore on this call. I ALWAYS make people get 1 front and 1 rear in those gates without touching the gate. Rarely does anybody ever judge as strict as I do on this call but IMO, it needs to be called this way. Now imagine that this is on gate 1 and you cant do it. Everybody else ahead of you that was not judged by ME got a -10. You just got a +38 because I wont let you pass without doing it correctly. 48 points to you. Good luck with the rest of the comp.

Dont kid yourself, the above are just examples but they happen all the time and group judging events.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Here is a big one...

If I can see 5 things at every group judged comp that change the outcome of the comp, how many inconsistencies are there that I DONT see? 20? 50? A lot. Thats all I know.

 

[Robbob]

And the answer to consistent judging is paying people?


Event Marshalls having meetings before events and answering judges questions, going over rules and except able interpretations of questionable rules, communicating with their helpers ......

None of that could help alleviate any possible head aches with scoring?


Judging is never gonna be perfect, just like the rules its all about how one human interprets words mixed together in a paragraph.

 

[Erik D_lux]

And the answer to consistent judging is paying people?

No. The answer to consistent judging is to have the same person judge everybody.

Event Marshalls having meetings before events and answering judges questions, going over rules and except able interpretations of questionable rules, communicating with their helpers ......

None of that could help alleviate any possible head aches with scoring?

Its not that people have problems with rules. Its not that people have problems with judging. Its that two different people can judge the same exact run and come up with a totally different score.

Judging is never gonna be perfect, just like the rules its all about how one human interprets words mixed together in a paragraph.

Thats actually a perfect example. Kinda like the game where you whisper in people's ears in a circle. When that statement gets to the end of the circle, you have a cluster of peoples interpretations.

Give 20 people one paragraph and tell them to interpret it and you will get 20 different answers. Give one person that paragraph and you will have the same answer over and over.

We dont want 20 different answers. We want 1 answer.

 

[Erik D_lux]

If anybody is up for it, I know of the perfect video online that I have seen. It would be interesting to post it, have all of us watch it and then see how many different scores we come up with. IMO, if its off even 3-4 points between all of us, which it would be, it proves that there really is no other answer for a true result than consistent judges.

My guess is that it would be all over the place and I would also guess that many people had a very similar result on the same course.

I will want to get permission from the person as I am pretty sure it would have changed their positioning at worlds by a long, long way.

 

[VMGontheRocks]

Now imagine that there is a hard gate and you have to straddle one of them but even doing that is hard. I am hardcore on this call. I ALWAYS make people get 1 front and 1 rear in those gates without touching the gate. Rarely does anybody ever judge as strict as I do on this call but IMO, it needs to be called this way. Now imagine that this is on gate 1 and you cant do it. Everybody else ahead of you that was not judged by ME got a -10. You just got a +38 because I wont let you pass without doing it correctly. 48 points to you. Good luck with the rest of the comp.

Isn't this issue more an issue with people understanding the rules? Couldn't the above issue be solved with a judges meeting saying "to get progress one front and one rear must pass between the gates"

I mean the rule is:
7.2.1 - A gate is considered cleared when at least one front and one rear wheel passes between the two gate
markers, and all four tires are past the gate in the intended direction of the gate.

To me that's between the gates and not touching.

I understand where you're coming from in having just one judge per course for fairness. But even then they have to run and someone has to judge them run. So now you have at least two judges per course. What about two shifts per course. Shift A and Shift B?

 

[Robbob]

No. The answer to consistent judging is to have the same person judge everybody.

Its not that people have problems with rules. Its not that people have problems with judging. Its that two different people can judge the same exact run and come up with a totally different score.

Thats actually a perfect example. Kinda like the game where you whisper in people's ears in a circle. When that statement gets to the end of the circle, you have a cluster of peoples interpretations.

Give 20 people one paragraph and tell them to interpret it and you will get 20 different answers. Give one person that paragraph and you will have the same answer over and over.

We dont want 20 different answers. We want 1 answer.

I can agree on that ....... it does give consistent judging.


Now give the event 6 courses and you now have 6 different scores for the same calls, or 12 different scores if you have 2 judges per course.

It still doesn't mean each judge is gonna give the same call on even your situations and unless its one course at the event youre still gonna have things that could sway the end result.

 

[Solitaire]

You guys can debate this til the cows come home, but if y'all want absolutely consistent judging on every course you'll need to have 8 pairs (based on 8 courses and 48 drivers) of non-driving judges who will agree to stay out there for 6-8 hours. This is also based on the need for two judges for each course. One for the left gate and one for the right.

I say "non-driving" because there won't be any spare time for them to drive any courses if they judge all day.

So, who is willing to make the trip to Apple Valley, pay for their own gas and accommodation, judge all day and not get to drive their own rigs? Sounds like a tall order to me.

So, now where do we go with all this?

Maybe back off a bit on the consistency thing and accept that there will be a few missed calls. We're talking toy trucks here, not million dollar rigs, million dollar drivers or thousands in prize payouts.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Isn't this issue more an issue with people understanding the rules? Couldn't the above issue be solved with a judges meeting saying "to get progress one front and one rear must pass between the gates"

Yes, it is a problem with understanding the rules. The problem is that no matter what you do, people still find a way to judge differently. This is just one of many examples.

It still doesn't mean each judge is gonna give the same call on even your situations and unless its one course at the event youre still gonna have things that could sway the end result.

Without question there will still be inconsistencies. Any time you have a judge, they will make judgement calls. All we can ask is that they do their best and hope that they are consistent. As I said on Facebook, I would rather have 1 really crappy judge thats consistent than 20 pretty good judges that are slightly different than each other.

I say "non-driving" because there won't be any spare time for them to drive any courses if they judge all day.

Isnt this a bit drastic? Seriously, have you EVER been to a comp where the judges didnt get to drive at the end of the day? I never have.

Really, we are talking about 50 drivers, 25 people per judge. Thats a cake walk. Can we stop being so dramatic about all of this? I used to judge 60-70 people EVERY SINGLE MONTH through comps at 801. 25 people is so easy!

So, who is willing to make the trip to Apple Valley, pay for their own gas and accommodation, judge all day and not get to drive their own rigs? Sounds like a tall order to me.

The same people that do every single time. I know I have not missed judging a comp since 2013. Its not a tall order. Its simple and would be even more simple if people would pitch in their fair share.

Maybe back off a bit on the consistency thing and accept that there will be a few missed calls. We're talking toy trucks here, not million dollar rigs, million dollar drivers or thousands in prize payouts.

IMO, we are not talking about a few missed calls. From all the issues I have seen, they change the comp entirely. Like, the scores dont even really matter since they are not realistic.

I might be taking it a bit too far but I would become so uninterested in comping if we have group judges that I wouldnt see the difference in self judging or not judging at all. It would all be the same to me. I am sitting here wondering if I will even go to comps anymore.

I think the whole "we are driving toy trucks" thing does not apply for me. Maybe I take it too serious? I try to think of other sports or hobbies and apply that logic and it seems silly.

"Welcome to the Super Bowl! Lets try not to take this too seriously, we are after all just throwing a toy ball around..."

"Welcome to the Tour De France! Lets try to not take this too seriously, we are after all just riding bikes....."

It might work for a Rec league stuff but not those who want the competition. If you guys ever find the NFL of crawling, let me know. I would like to join up with them and leave all this "toy truck" thing behind. :roll:

 

[Solitaire]

Erik, you're living in a dream world.
Yes, I think every competition should have everyone taking it seriously. Comparing comp crawling to a SuperBowl is a bit far fetched, though. Referees and linesmen make extremely good money. Football can afford that.
Comp crawling has no money and has little or no chance to pay for a consistent set of judges.

Yes, my example of non-driving judges was far-fetched, but you keep spouting consistency. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Your type of desired consistency can only come with a paid set of judges that only do that.

If you want drivers to also judge, then there will be inconsistencies. That's human nature.

Perhaps take JSlick's formula and adjust it to leave judges "on duty" to handle a few more drivers which, hopefully, will also reduce the number of inconsistencies.

Also, I'm not seeing the list of judges increasing to the number you'll need to handle the comp properly.

...and the debate continues.

 

[winnerone23]

They are "toy trucks".. pretty serious toys tho..

Even if it was called, A toy truck comp... one word gets me, every time..
Comp.. Competition...

Football, bike riding, toy trucks.. it's all about the competition, in the end.
It's a driving factory, of Any comp..
Fun being a Top priority!

Now, for me, it's not just the competition, toy trucks or Winnering..
For me, it's My hobby, between sobriety and drunk..

You guys think I go to great lengths to crawl and get to comps and drive Thousands of miles a year, to play with toy trucks.. picture all that in going after a bottle..
I don't give a shit if a few points are missed and I Love being the Winner at the end of the day!

But Sticking someone on the same course for 8hrs, isn't worth them points! Isn't worth the win..

We are all big boys.. the top driver's can judge themselves, IMO.. I don't want to win, by a lie.. I don't want to fudge my score..
I want to drive my ass off and Earn it...

I would rather see judges stepping up, like the last 2 Big comps I was at and the NENC coming up, and Everybody having fun!
Not 16 guys hating there weekend, come 2p.m. Saturday afternoon..

 

[CM9000]

3 judges per course. so 2 at one time get a decent break. for smoke or food or water. while one judges.

 

[Curcal]

We're talking toy trucks here, not million dollar rigs, million dollar drivers or thousands in prize payouts.

Smaller scale:smaller prizes. Btw how much did winner take home from the Monster showdown? 2000 right..... thousands in prize payouts....

Comparing comp crawling to a SuperBowl is a bit far fetched, though. Referees and linesmen make extremely good money. Football can afford that. Comp crawling has no money and has little or no chance to pay for a consistent set of judges.

This is our SuperBowl...... the point of this thread from the get go has been to pay those who volunteer to judge..... and pretty good money too. SuperBowl money? No, refer to previous scale comment ^.

They are "toy trucks".. pretty serious toys tho..

Even if it was called, A toy truck comp... one word gets me, every time..
Comp.. Competition....

But Sticking someone on the same course for 8hrs, isn't worth them points! Isn't worth the win.....

I would rather see judges stepping up, like the last 2 Big comps I was at and the NENC coming up, and Everybody having fun!
Not 16 guys hating there weekend, come 2p.m. Saturday afternoon..

These are just toy trucks, expensive and time consuming toy trucks. What makes this serious is the competition... (and imo the competition is what makes this fun). why else would we build soild rigs to take serolious punishment? so we dont have failures on course. Why do some of us on spare time go out to the rock and practice? Sonwe can learn our cars and perform better at competition... we just made toy trucks seroius... dont let anyone delude that. We have all gotten upset, disappointed, happy, proud because of our performances, some more than others.....but why? Its just toy trucks.... because we all take it serious.

On to my next point.

Erik and I are both advocating to share the load of a course if we plan correctly and judges are on top of it no one will have to judge the course for 8 hours straight.....
You're advocating for guys stepping up like youve seen at NENC and Monster Showdown ? It seems going through the threads that you all were assigned and had a choice as to which time slot you wanted (even that choice was made for most)..... imo thats not stepping up to volunteer.

 

[KingGee]

Consistency in a comp is key. I know I feel better about my score if I know I was judged the same as everyone else. Having to pay someone to step and judge shouldn't be necessary of course but by having too many judges for 1 course opens up a world of issues. I've seen far too many buddy passes handed out over the years from a judge which as has been said alters the entire comp. We've seen the top 5 at some comps vary by very few points. Every penalty is a penalty and should be recorded even if you feel bad giving your buddy what he deserves. Group format is junk and should never be allowed. If the needed amount of judges sign up the comp should move smoothly and quickly. Ideally having 2 per course would be nice or rather a group of marshals who wander around relieving judges for a quick course or 2. But glance at the sign ups as of now and having enough to put on the event is looking questionable. Good quality judges who are honest are hard to find at times. If offering a incentive is needed than so be it. I for one don't require it. Rather have whoever won the event won it fairly.

 

[Erik D_lux]

We are finalizing what we want to do with judges. Sign ups for the event and info on what we are doing for judging is coming soon.

Looks like everything is going to work out perfect.

 

[nappahdog]

What's the good word? How is this gonna work out?

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[Del Monte]

What's the good word? How is this gonna work out?

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I'll let those guys comment on the judging side of things, but I can say that I've hiked a new, totally untouched section of rock for the event. It's going to be killer 8)