Judged Roll Overs - Let's discuss why?

[Hardline]

Judging is a significant problem in the sport. Judges are just people, some are picky and hard-nosed, others are easy going and don't want to upset. One would think that if the same person judged a course all day, it would be uniform, thus fair, regardless of his approach. But I've never seen a single judge work the entire field at a major. Chances are, he's a competitor too, and needs to be spelled for his own runs. Or he needs a lunch or bathroom break. Or they alternate two judges to get people through faster. Judging is subjective when it comes to flying over gates (float?), legal roll-overs, how close to a marker is too close.

It's even worse at regional events where everybody takes a stint at judging because few individuals are willing to judge all day. Again, I don't know how to fix the problem, but rewriting rules to eliminate some of the required subjective calls would help. IE the roll-over rule we've been discussing and banning over-flights. Between the markers means BETWEEN the markers....not 2 feet above them. I've seen terrible calls on this on a pretty regular basis. Many not getting called on floats where others were.

 

[Solitaire]

Judging IS subjective. Not just crawling, but other sports as well. Nothing we can do about that unless you want to spring for multiple cameras and the "instant replay".

Flying over/through gates is definitely a tough call, but what do we do about that? Do we make all the courses so flat and easy that every truck keeps it's tires on the ground for the duration of the run? Boring. If a club has a problem with judges correctly calling floats, then maybe it needs to provide a second judge...or the "instant replay".

Roll-overs we've discussed. Maybe you could cover that with the flat course rule.

"how close to a marker is too close?" Close isn't a penalty. A gate touch is. Not always easy to see, depending on the speed of the truck, but it is what it is.

The OP suggested that the roll-over rule was part of the reason hardly anyone in his club is crawling anymore due to the complexity of the rules. Many of the best drivers in the country have chimed in and stated clearly that the rules are fine as they are. Let's move on.

We're all interested in adding members to our respective crawler rosters and there are things that we can do to help promote the sport. Those are the things we need to focus on...rule changes are not the hangup.

Speaking of rules, I hope JRH reinstates some kind of rules committee as that is the democratic way to make changes.

 

[Solitaire]

I'd like to add:

I watched every video available (some, several times) of the 2014 World's and did NOT see any issues with judging. I realize there may have been a few questionable calls during some of the the preliminaries, but the finals were handled masterfully, IMO.

Those that were there in person possibly may have some objections.

 

[tapped-out]

The rules are simple 4 wheels between gates = progress without penalty. Roll backs/ rollovers really aren't hard to make a judgement call on. Multiple judges are necessary no one wants to stand on the rocks all day. (Some do judge all day)
IMO, you guys wanting to change rules should just have comp GTG with no rules "free run courses" to promote your local clubs.

 

[ROWDY RACING]

Turbos bread and butter comment was dead nuts.

Make the bread smaller so the budda will cover, less is more in the niche that is comp crawling. Many cannot afford to have and keep up 5 rigs to run all these classes, let alone afford to be out of town for 3-4 days to run them all, flame away but 5 comp crawling classes may be too much.

 

[Solitaire]

There was some talk just before World's that any class that didn't have enough participants may be dropped for 2015. Has there been any more discussion on that?

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

Speaking of rules, I hope JRH reinstates some kind of rules committee as that is the democratic way to make changes.

The democratic method works well when progress and action is not wanted, one only needs to look at the effectiveness of our government to see it in action. I'm not going in guns a blazing though to "fix" things myself, either. If/ when Usrcca comps become hard to manage there will be a small group created that consists of manufacturers, hosts/ competitors, and myself. In the mean time the rules and classes are basically frozen and people need not worry about event or rig changes.


This thread has had great discussion overall and has given me further ideas on the matter of judging. I think it best to absolutely ensure that regional, national, and world events have defined rules, but to also give local groups and hobby shops the structure to host events that are much easier to run. I've got to simmer on the overall concept a bit longer, but think I have an idea that will work.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

There was some talk just before World's that any class that didn't have enough participants may be dropped for 2015. Has there been any more discussion on that?

Classes aren't going to be dropped, but there will be an emphasis on the popular ones for an overall title at next years large events. Much of knowing what classes are popular and where hinges on people using RCorva.com to list their event and attendance. Without the data in one central place its basically a guessing game or an accountants worst nightmare. So start use the dang website people, otherwise we are flying blind and I wasted many thousands of dollars trying to organize the usrcca with a nice database system.

 

[ROLANDROCKSHOP]

Ive used the "instant replay" several times at our comps..

One good thing about having a camera rolling during each comp."thumbsup"

 

[crawl-o-matic]

Redcat racing is making a new shaft-ed rig, I have an RS10 and it's not bad quality for the price and I'll bet the same is true of their new rig. I'm going to pick up a few for our club so visitors can give it a go

 

[Jslick]

Turbos bread and butter comment was dead nuts.

Make the bread smaller so the budda will cover, less is more in the niche that is comp crawling. Many cannot afford to have and keep up 5 rigs to run all these classes, let alone afford to be out of town for 3-4 days to run them all, flame away but 5 comp crawling classes may be too much.

LOL Damn you Rowdy, I just got a super built.

I do agree that time off work and cost of travel is a big challenge. That is why I have to pick and choose what bigger events I attend.

 

[Jslick]

Classes aren't going to be dropped, but there will be an emphasis on the popular ones for an overall title at next years large events. Much of knowing what classes are popular and where hinges on people using RCorva.com to list their event and attendance. Without the data in one central place its basically a guessing game or an accountants worst nightmare. So start use the dang website people, otherwise we are flying blind and I wasted many thousands of dollars trying to organize the usrcca with a nice database system.

The club I belong to will not be using the site to post comps until the weather warms up. Most of the country that gets cold you might not get any info until the spring. Just a heads up. I don't think it is a waste of time, but it will take time (at least 1-2 years) to properly gather all the info you are lookinig for.

 

[chevotafun]

The club I belong to will not be using the site to post comps until the weather warms up. Most of the country that gets cold you might not get any info until the spring. Just a heads up. I don't think it is a waste of time, but it will take time (at least 1-2 years) to properly gather all the info you are lookinig for.

Yes I would agree that this is a very fare statement. "thumbsup"
We wouldn't be running till march if we didn't have a indoor spot to crawl.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

If you are hosting events and not posting them because it isn't part of the regular series, you are just shorting your club of valuable information that can be used to help get vendor participation and show how active you are. It will take a few years to get rich information gathered and the winter will be sparse, but more clubs than not are putting it off while I see new events posted in the regional sections. The clubs that have recorded comps and get togethers starting earlier will get the most attention when it's time to start pushing sponsors and prizes down from the top.


So to the people who are being lazy and waiting until the series officially starts, fair warning of the consequences.

 

[chevotafun]

The democratic method works well when progress and action is not wanted, one only needs to look at the effectiveness of our government to see it in action. I'm not going in guns a blazing though to "fix" things myself, either. If/ when Usrcca comps become hard to manage there will be a small group created that consists of manufacturers, hosts/ competitors, and myself. In the mean time the rules and classes are basically frozen and people need not worry about event or rig changes.


This thread has had great discussion overall and has given me further ideas on the matter of judging. I think it best to absolutely ensure that regional, national, and world events have defined rules, but to also give local groups and hobby shops the structure to host events that are much easier to run. I've got to simmer on the overall concept a bit longer, but think I have an idea that will work.

IMO and I think Joel already said this.
There should be a rules committee and that committee should be made up of the presidents of the clubs supporting the USRCCA.
These are the people dealing with the rules on a regular basis.
Maybe not all of them, but pick a committee out of those people.

The local guys should be running the same rules as what would be run at a National event, so that you are always driving under the same rules and then these rules become second nature to those people and then when these said people goto a national event there should be no issue's with the rules.

 

[chevotafun]

If you are hosting events and not posting them because it isn't part of the regular series, you are just shorting your club of valuable information that can be used to help get vendor participation and show how active you are. It will take a few years to get rich information gathered and the winter will be sparse, but more clubs than not are putting it off while I see new events posted in the regional sections. The clubs that have recorded comps and get togethers starting earlier will get the most attention when it's time to start pushing sponsors and prizes down from the top.


So to the people who are being lazy and waiting until the series officially starts, fair warning of the consequences.

We won't be waiting.
We just got the club signed up the person in charged of that was on holidays and didn't get it finish before he left but is on it now ."thumbsup"

 

[tapped-out]

I looked up scale rules, These SORRCA rules have more point value to remember than comp rules. That doesn't include rig specs rules. How are the numbers @ these events?

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

Don't know overall at the lower levels, but the regional events have kept a more consistent turnout. It's a group of pretty dedicated modelers that use sorcca rules, and the hosts have kept it consistent over the years.

 

[ZoSo]

As in everything in life... money is the biggest factor in any decision making....rules and great drivers/builders are not the problem.
Most people want a challenge, but if it costs a fortune or takes 3 months of reading threads to figure out what your doing, people
get discouraged. We need an ARTR comp crawler that is competitive out of the box...the XR10 was close.... but failed because Axial
tried to make it too affordable. This sport is not for the pleasure crawlers, it takes practice, dedication and money.

 

[chevotafun]

Well said Zoso so true
I said the same thing a page back or so

I really believe this is one of the biggest if not the biggest issue are hobby has.
If the average person can't walk into a hobby store or online and buy an RTR crawler at a decent price the sport/hobby will never grow.

As ZoSo just said people lose interest if they have to wait 3 to 4 months to pcs a crawler together before they can play with it.

When the number were big in crawling is when the xr10 was in all the hobby stores.
Yes the xr10 could have used a few tweaks but a decent starting point.