Judged Roll Overs - Let's discuss why?

[Solitaire]

So, John, you're suggesting we dumb down the comp rules just in case there are some scalers out there that may want to try a comp rig? Personally, I don't think it's the rules that keep scalers away from comp rigs. I think they feel intimidated by a more complex rig and the associated cost to build a competitor.

Other than the roll-over rule, what others do you think need changing?

 

[tapped-out]

Changing the rules isn't going to get new guys(scale guys) to compete @ a pro comp. It's not the rules keeping people away.

 

[Curcal]

I'm just thinking that if you change the rule to work more like a touch repo. I would be pissed if i'm 6 ft from gate 10 and use a rollover to get righted. But because I'm low on time if i went back to gate 9 there's no possibility to finish because there's 25ft between 9 and 10.

 

[SkaldidDog]

Changing the rules isn't going to get new guys(scale guys) to compete @ a pro comp. It's not the rules keeping people away.

Exactly!!!

Just leave the rules alone. If you can't perform a rollover you have no business driving a rig. If you cannot judge a rollover you have no business judging. There will always be some level of subjectivity in judging. At some point you must accept that and get over it. I cannot remember the last time an improper rollover caused any problems.

Our collective time is far better spent discussing ideas to increase the fanbase of crawling not how to make it more technical and difficult. Let's worry about changing rules when events are selling out again.

J

 

[Jslick]

The biggest issue comp crawling faces that has been said over and over is the lack of an "affordable" out of the box rig. Building a rig from scratch is why we are such a nitch part of the rc world. Until that changes we will continue to be small. Making too many changes to what is perceived as working well now will only shrink our numbers not make them grow. Right now is a huge turning point for comp crawlers with the change to rcorva/usrcca. We will sink or swim, I am tired of just treading water. I love this hobby and want it to succeed for selfish reasons, I love hanging out with awesome people and just having a great time. Sure I like to do well when I drive but that is not my main focus anymore. This is just my personal take on what is going on.

 

[TURBOFEST]

I guess the rules are so well written that comp crawling will grow then. Y'all know what's best. Look how far we've come and fallen.


..Uploaded from the lab @ the C.I. Compound...

OK drama.

You're right dude...it's DEFINITELY the way the rules were written that is cause for the decline in comp crawling. There are no other possible factors! :roll:

Nothing wrong with them from a competitors point of view that has been through it all, right? How about a new club that is interested in comp crawling but doesn't have anybody familiar with anything but scale? I've got about 30 people within a 1.5 hour radius that have never even seen a comp rig or ran comp gates, nor do they want to because the judging is "too complicated". If I don't run it, it don't happen. And I haven't run one in years, can't get free weekends like I used to.

But the guys down at the lake of the Ozarks are hosting trail runs every week or two when the weather is good. But they still can't get past all the minutia of judging a RCCA comp.

I just think Comp Crawling and Scale crawling are apples and oranges. Trying to widdle one down to appeal to the other is just going to make a mess. Scale guys aren't interested in Comp crawling, not because of the way a couple rules were written, but more so the fact that those rules even exist, plus they just plain aren't interested in organized competition. They just don't want to be bothered by them. They just want to show up, drop rigs on the ground, plug in batteries and drive till it dies or breaks, when that happens, they go home. They don't want to wait on lines to run and deal with "rules" and gates and judges and classes and all that. There is no way the competitive comp rules will ever appeal to those guys and I feel like that's OK. (I realize that was a huge generalization...I'm speaking on what I have taken away from the majority of local Scale guys in NJ)

Lets just face the simple fact that Comp crawling will never be as big as it once was. It grew HUGE in popularity for awhile because that was all there was. Now there is scale (3 classes), mud, U4, Comp (5 classes), pullers, TTC etc etc. Too little butter spread over too much bread....

 

[SkaldidDog]

I guess the rules are so well written that comp crawling will grow then. Y'all know what's best. Look how far we've come and fallen.


..Uploaded from the lab @ the C.I. Compound...

What TX comp club do you crawl with each month?

J

 

[SkaldidDog]

OK drama.

You're right dude...it's DEFINITELY the way the rules were written that is cause for the decline in comp crawling. There are no other possible factors! :roll:




I just think Comp Crawling and Scale crawling are apples and oranges. Trying to widdle one down to appeal to the other is just going to make a mess. Scale guys aren't interested in Comp crawling, not because of the way a couple rules were written, but more so the fact that those rules even exist, plus they just plain aren't interested in organized competition. They just don't want to be bothered by them. They just want to show up, drop rigs on the ground, plug in batteries and drive till it dies or breaks, when that happens, they go home. They don't want to wait on lines to run and deal with "rules" and gates and judges and classes and all that. There is no way the competitive comp rules will ever appeal to those guys and I feel like that's OK. (I realize that was a huge generalization...I'm speaking on what I have taken away from the majority of local Scale guys in NJ)

Lets just face the simple fact that Comp crawling will never be as big as it once was. It grew HUGE in popularity for awhile because that was all there was. Now there is scale (3 classes), mud, U4, Comp (5 classes), pullers, TTC etc etc. Too little butter spread over too much bread....

"thumbsup"

Some observations. Here are the active (hosting a full season) domestic comp clubs (RCC or FB) that I can find. Please let me know if I've missed any. I'll start the list with the largest comp club in the country and then list the rest from west to east...sorta.

BYB CA (15+ drivers per event:shock
NorCal CA
BLC CA
CVRC CA
NARCCA AZ
NMRC NM
4CRC2 NM
GCRC TX
ETRC TN
EPARCC PA
VARCOR VA
SCRCC SC
OCK MA
BC MA
GSRCRC NJ

Note some of these clubs don't post comps in the RCC comp section (which makes their comps a few more clicks to find). As an aside, centralized posting in the comps section would be nice IMO"thumbsup". I also feel that Facebook is slowly gaining market share of comp postings from RCC.

My point in posting this: If comp crawling experiences any official rules changes I sincerely hope that the heads of all of these clubs are among the voting members. Comp crawling is not about Qualifiers and big events any more. Please let the guys in the trenches each month make the rules. We are the ones affected. Where is the list of RC members again?

J

 

[Nova's Ark]

What TX comp club do you crawl with each month?

J

I do not comp crawl with any clubs.

I have not competed in a USRCCA formatted event since 2012.

The roll over rule changes back in 2011 among other small things damaged most of our club. The club was already suffering due to the cost of high dollar comp crawlers, lack of variety of challenging terrain, and judging in general. Only two guys remain from the original group that still own comp crawlers from the original ETXRCC core group.

The etxrcc club has now been taken over by new comers and made entirely into a G6 club now.

As for GCRC in Houston, they are down to only a few guys and slowly moving away from the comp crawling. Incidentally, it's a 5 hour drive, each way to compete with that club for me. The DFW or North Texas club is pretty much the same and it's 3 hours each way. Central Texas is gone altogether and West Texas never took off. So comp crawling in the State of Texas is pretty much dead.

And I didn't have shit to do with that. I was on Rules Committee for years and did my job for the people I represented.

I also don't have shit to do with the fact that comp crawler chassis, links, and other parts are so hard to find and purchase to the average person. I talk with at least one person weekly wanting a highly capable comp crawler and willing to put $500 - $700 out for a good one. I always suggest RCC Classifieds, pay the $20, get the star, read and research.

I'm not advocating dumbing down the rules. What am I advocating, is possibly re-addressing some rules with a fresh perspective. JRH owns the show now.

 

[Nova's Ark]

OK drama.
.

You know me. Always starting drama

 

[Nova's Ark]

Lets just face the simple fact that Comp crawling will never be as big as it once was. It grew HUGE in popularity for awhile because that was all there was. Now there is scale (3 classes), mud, U4, Comp (5 classes), pullers, TTC etc etc. Too little butter spread over too much bread....

I agree with your statement "Too little butter spread over too much bread...."



However, It's USRCCA Competition RC Rock Crawling and you sir ARE ONE OF THE FREAKING BEST IN THE WORLD!!!!!

So if you can passively let comp crawling fade away, when you a f'ing leader in the world, I see no need to discuss further. You have accepted a back seat to other genres of RC competition. This is where I disagree with you ALL, Competitive Comp Crawling could return if it was better planned and managed. It starts with making the format simple and repeatable for any mom and pop hobby store to implement. Keep it simple, and consistent!!

 

[SkaldidDog]

This is where I disagree with you ALL, Competitive Comp Crawling could return if it was better planned and managed. It starts with making the format simple and repeatable for any mom and pop hobby store to implement. Keep it simple, and consistent!!

It could, but only after increasing exposure and the availability of rigs. Planning and managing become limiting only when events are of a certain size. Any event less than 20 guys isn't hard to manage or plan. That number of drivers covers every club in the country at this point.

It can only get so simple. Drive your truck through the gates. If a newb does an iffy rollover who cares. Use it as a learning experience or, as a judge, do it for him"thumbsup". Show him the ropes.

The clarity and ease of implementation of USRCCA rules is not the problem. It may be a problem but let's get more drivers and deal with rules and stuff when we have no other hurdles to clear.

J

 

[TURBOFEST]

Joel...GSRCRC can be on that list as well. Thank you Sir!

 

[TURBOFEST]

I agree with your statement "Too little butter spread over too much bread...."



However, It's USRCCA Competition RC Rock Crawling and you sir ARE ONE OF THE FREAKING BEST IN THE WORLD!!!!!

So if you can passively let comp crawling fade away, when you a f'ing leader in the world, I see no need to discuss further. You have accepted a back seat to other genres of RC competition. This is where I disagree with you ALL, Competitive Comp Crawling could return if it was better planned and managed. It starts with making the format simple and repeatable for any mom and pop hobby store to implement. Keep it simple, and consistent!!

WTF are you even talking about???

Passively let comp crawling fade away??? I have been flying the flag for 8 years and am still. I was at Nationals this year just the same as every other year since 08, I participated heavily in managing the event. I also run my club and schedule and run all our comps. So, I'M not TAKING a back seat to anything.

I'm just acknowledging the reality of the situation.

 

[SkaldidDog]

Joel...GSRCRC can be on that list as well. Thank you Sir!

Updated.

Cheers,

J

 

[stevejr]

Sorry to be off topic but our club isn't listed a few posts back. W.Pa.C. (Western Pennsylvania Crawlers) has a full comp class summer series every year and until we lost the building a full comp class winter series as well. We don't post the events here all the time because we have our own website at wpacrawlers.com. I did post the link here to the schedule last summer if I recall correctly.

 

[Hardline]

Since this thread has morphed into what the hell happened to our sport, it should probably be retitled. I've seen two comp clubs die in SoCal in two years. What remains is a shadow of what it was recently. I don't think the rules are responsible. Don't really think hardware availability is responsible because the beginner classes were the first to disappear. There's no novice, no sportsman, and no shafty2.2 to speak of. Those are the easiest cars to come by. I suppose it could be the not enough butter theory, but the ex-comp'rs don't seem to be over at the other venues either.

I think it's the people. Many of you are serious, have been around long enough to have clawed your way to the top and you like the status-quo. DON'T CHANGE A DAMNED THING. But in your success, you've pushed success out of reach for new people. They show up, try for a while, get discouraged and quit. I don't know how to fix that, maybe it's unfixable. But I do know there are a lot of arrogant people on this forum and what goes around, comes around. Flame away.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

Growth will start from trail class since the rigs are easy and cheap to source, the only class where rtr rigs can compete. But when I say that exclusively scale clubs are deterred from running trail class because of judging complexity, it's either ignored or deflected because there are bigger issues too.


Change will not come from within like a zen master, nor will existing clubs ever agree on any change for better or worse. People get set in their ways and don't like changes at all, and as minor as this would be to the format of an event it's being poo-pood as being a most unreasonable topic to be discussing. Overall, it's a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't situation. Alienate existing competitors for the sake of a much broader segment, or appease them and keep grinding down our numbers until nobody is left to object?

 

[chevotafun]

Ok here is my 2 cent from a small club up here in canada :shock:

IMO the biggest reason for the decline is the economy.
When it was going there were tons of people out crawling plus there were comp crawler you could buy off the self like the xr.

Without having a crawler u can buy of the self it does not make it easy for the new guy to get into the sport/hobby.

Yes u can go onto rcc and find a great crawler for a sweet price.

But without someone telling u about rcc you would have no idea where to look.

As for the rules well I don't think that is the issue.
We run both crawler and scale event together.

IMO most of if not 90% of the scale guy have no interest in comp crawling.
But with that said the new sportsman class has brought a few over to the crawler side and even a couple of those have now showed interest in the pro class.
But like already said there are so many option now that it has watered down all classes.

The roll over rule is not the issue we use the roll over rule in scale as well and really if the truck moves a 1/8" when rolling over is not going to make the difference in who the best drive is.
We went from a club using the past presidents own rules that he figured worked best.
They did work good for scale but IMO were to relaxed on the crawler guys, so last yr I change the crawler side over to the Usrcca rules and it was a easy move for everyone.
Of course we all had an idea of how rules work even tho they were a little different.
Also we want to be on the same page as the rest of the world.
Did a couple fight the new rules of course a couple did.
Some people just don't like change.
We are very relaxed on this rule and the better drive always wins.
As for the repo IMO as long as part of the truck is in the plane of the gate should be good enough.

I think there needs to be a novice class for the new comers.
The one think I hear from the new guys is I will never be able to beat that guy so why should I stay.
We run a novice class so that we don't scare off the new guys,
They get to run against everyone but are scored against other movie guys and we give a novice prizes at yr end.
If you win novice you move to pro.

What we need to focus on is getting the manufacture back into the hobby to make crawling accessible to the average person.

This is how I got into the sport seen a xr crawling and was like dam my ax-10 can't do that.

Until this happens were fighting a uphill battle that I hope we can win.

Oh and people have to stop whining grow a set of balls and just get out there and tell yourself one day I will bet that guy.
This is how my brother and I approach it when we first started.
We got are asses handed to us at first but by the end of our first season we were giving the seasoned guys a run for there money.
You just have to stick with it nothing come easy

 

[Jslick]

This is your baby now JRH. We will follow your lead. I don't feel judging is too complex. People do not want the responsibility of judging, they would rather stand around and BS than step up or are afraid that they will make an error. I think that if a rule change is explained clearly and is logical there should not be an issue. Changing something just for the sake of change is foolish. On the local level the rules have been used and adjusted to meet the needs of the clubs. I know the club I belong to has several addendums regarding the rules and how we wish to interpret them. The change that was suggested could be written as an option to rolling over. For worlds events it should be standard and consistent.