papabash
I wanna be Dave
Thanks, I'm anxious to see if you're right!
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Papabash's Team BWD 'Low-Pro' Wedge Build
- Thread starter papabash
- Start date
Thanks, I'm anxious to see if you're right!
papabash
I wanna be Dave
Had the day off today, so I got a little wheel time in on my garage course. Tried several lines that are pretty tricky that I use to compare set-ups. With the knuckle weights, I was able to do all of them. Some were a bit easier, some were about the same. I do feel that the knuckle weights give me a little better vertical climb, but I also seem to have lost a bit of traction in the front. The traction thing makes no sense to me, since I am running about a 1/4 ounce more weight on each wheel than before. Maybe I just need to clean my tires or take the leaf blower to the rocks...
At any rate, I am comfortable that the rig performs at least as well as it did prior to adding the knuckle weights, and maybe a tiny bit better. I know that a lot of people swear by them, but for my driving style, I honestly can't say I see a drastic difference. There is, however, just enough to make me keep them in place and run them. They might just give me that little something extra some day when I really need it. "thumbsup"
At any rate, I am comfortable that the rig performs at least as well as it did prior to adding the knuckle weights, and maybe a tiny bit better. I know that a lot of people swear by them, but for my driving style, I honestly can't say I see a drastic difference. There is, however, just enough to make me keep them in place and run them. They might just give me that little something extra some day when I really need it. "thumbsup"
papabash
I wanna be Dave
While I had some time, I decided to fab some rear axle weights. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when I went to the lightweight rear wheels, the rig tended to want to flip over on steep descents. In order to correct this, I stuck about .40 ounce of lead on each side with a zip-tie (the same ghetto-style fix most people tend to use until they have the time to make something better).
I grabbed a sheet of 1/4" Delrin, a couple of washers, and made these:
They weigh just a hair over 1/2 ounce each:
Mounted on the rig:
I grabbed a sheet of 1/4" Delrin, a couple of washers, and made these:
They weigh just a hair over 1/2 ounce each:
Mounted on the rig:
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EverettY
E.Y. Designs
They fit nicely inside the wheel "thumbsup" Great job!
papabash
I wanna be Dave
Kratos
RCC Addict
Im guessing the loss of traction your experiencing is the difference in knuckle weight and not wheel weight. You have to think like this, the farther out the weight, the more force it has on the outer area of the axle IE the tire. the farther in your weight, the less force it will have because it is distributing it more evenly among the two tires"thumbsup"
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papabash
I wanna be Dave
Thanks, that makes sense. I guess I was thinking the weight would be distributed evenly across the axle, but I see what you're saying. I drove it some more today, and there is a definite loss of traction, it's not dirty tires or dusty rocks. I'm kinda torn now whether to go back to the weighted wheels and improve my traction, or keep the tiny bit better vertical climb/sidehilling. I guess I could add some more weight to the knuckles and see if that helps. I hate to keep increasing the total weight of the rig, though.
Anybody else experienced this and have an opinion on which way to go?
Kratos
RCC Addict
You are correct saying that it is more evenly ditributed, I just didnt proof read my message. I actually meant to say that it is more evely distributed between the tires unless the knuckle weight is exactly at the farthest point out it can be(super close to the wheel face) You could try to remove some knuckle weight and add wheel weight, that way you get both
papabash
I wanna be Dave
That may be the next step. I'm thinking I would prefer that to adding more knuckle weight. I guess it's time for some experimenting.
hillbillyrc
RCC Addict
isn't that part of the fun?
papabash
I wanna be Dave
So I did some preliminary testing...
First I went back to the rock pile and tried the lines again to make sure I was seeing any kind of improvement with the knuckle weights, or if I was just expecting to see an improvement after shelling out the bucks and making the needed modifications to run them. After several more times up the "test" lines with both the knuckle weight setup and the "heavy wheel" setup, I can honestly say I saw no appreciable improvement with the knuckle weights.
Next I went back to the shop and set up an incline board (just a piece of plywood with some rubber shelf liner covering it). The maximum angle I could climb with the "heavy wheel" setup was 61* (without turning the collar down on the left rear shock - I got 63* when I did that). After putting the knuckle weights on, I tried the climb again and got to.............. 61*, the same as with the heavy wheels. Hmmmmmmm... not what I had expected to be sure.
The last test I did (and this is admittedly not ideal since it was a static test rather than a driving test), was to place the rig sideways on an incline and measure the angle at which it tipped over. This was an attempt to approximate sidehilling ability, and the result was the same with both setups - 52* (again with the shock springs set "soft").
Soooooo, at this point I have to say that the knuckle weights do me absolutely no good other than I did notice a bit more wheel speed while running them. However, it was not enough to make up for the lack of front tire traction that I mentioned in an earlier post. I may still play around with taking weight away from the knuckles and adding it to the wheels so that I have a combination as Kratos suggested, but honestly I'm having trouble seeing the value at this point.
I think the reason they do not work for me comes down to two factors: wheel design and chassis design. The bulk of the weight in my wheels is in the center (basically parallel to where the knuckle weights mount) and therefore does not raise the COG like other wheels that have the weight mounted around the outer perimeter of the wheel.
I also believe that the Mini Wedge Low-Pro chassis I am running just plain works, and because of it's low stance and incredible stability, it is less sensitive to outside influences such as minor adjustments in weight placement.
Now I feel a need to make the following point:
I AM NOT saying that the knuckle weights are a waste, or that they do not provide a significant benefit on certain rigs. I am only saying that ON MY PARTICULAR RIG WITH MY PARTICULAR SETUP, they seem to do more harm than good. DLUX makes killer RC products and is a valuable asset to the community. I run his LCC conversion adaptors and they are great! I know people who run knuckle weights and swear by them and I believe they are a valuable product.
I may tinker with this some more later, but for now I'm happy with how my previous setup worked with the heavy wheels. "thumbsup"
First I went back to the rock pile and tried the lines again to make sure I was seeing any kind of improvement with the knuckle weights, or if I was just expecting to see an improvement after shelling out the bucks and making the needed modifications to run them. After several more times up the "test" lines with both the knuckle weight setup and the "heavy wheel" setup, I can honestly say I saw no appreciable improvement with the knuckle weights.
Next I went back to the shop and set up an incline board (just a piece of plywood with some rubber shelf liner covering it). The maximum angle I could climb with the "heavy wheel" setup was 61* (without turning the collar down on the left rear shock - I got 63* when I did that). After putting the knuckle weights on, I tried the climb again and got to.............. 61*, the same as with the heavy wheels. Hmmmmmmm... not what I had expected to be sure.
The last test I did (and this is admittedly not ideal since it was a static test rather than a driving test), was to place the rig sideways on an incline and measure the angle at which it tipped over. This was an attempt to approximate sidehilling ability, and the result was the same with both setups - 52* (again with the shock springs set "soft").
Soooooo, at this point I have to say that the knuckle weights do me absolutely no good other than I did notice a bit more wheel speed while running them. However, it was not enough to make up for the lack of front tire traction that I mentioned in an earlier post. I may still play around with taking weight away from the knuckles and adding it to the wheels so that I have a combination as Kratos suggested, but honestly I'm having trouble seeing the value at this point.
I think the reason they do not work for me comes down to two factors: wheel design and chassis design. The bulk of the weight in my wheels is in the center (basically parallel to where the knuckle weights mount) and therefore does not raise the COG like other wheels that have the weight mounted around the outer perimeter of the wheel.
I also believe that the Mini Wedge Low-Pro chassis I am running just plain works, and because of it's low stance and incredible stability, it is less sensitive to outside influences such as minor adjustments in weight placement.
Now I feel a need to make the following point:
I AM NOT saying that the knuckle weights are a waste, or that they do not provide a significant benefit on certain rigs. I am only saying that ON MY PARTICULAR RIG WITH MY PARTICULAR SETUP, they seem to do more harm than good. DLUX makes killer RC products and is a valuable asset to the community. I run his LCC conversion adaptors and they are great! I know people who run knuckle weights and swear by them and I believe they are a valuable product.
I may tinker with this some more later, but for now I'm happy with how my previous setup worked with the heavy wheels. "thumbsup"
papabash
I wanna be Dave
Yes it is! "thumbsup"
hillbillyrc
RCC Addict
nice, test review what wheels were you running with the knuckle weights? and think kratos dose make a good point with the mix of knuckle weight and weighted wheels.
papabash
I wanna be Dave
They were stock Motoworx UFOs, check post #268 of this thread for details on how they differ from my normal setup.
Agreed, and I may do further testing to see if there is a "sweet spot" where I can have the increased wheel speed of the knuckle weights without sacrificing traction. If I can do that I'll be very happy.
hillbillyrc
RCC Addict
wasn't sure, can see where you would have to use those over the heavies with the knuckle weights.
papabash
I wanna be Dave
Yeah, the heavies have "built in" knuckle weights, they just aren't on the knuckle! :lmao:
papabash
I wanna be Dave
Okay, got off work early today so had some more time in the shop. Gotta love early-off Fridays! "thumbsup"
Anyway, after thinking about the whole knuckle weight situation, I decided to take Kratos' advice:
Weight after modifications (down from 2.9 ounces):
I added roughly 1 1/2 ounces of lead to each wheel, hammered out to approximately 1mm thickness:
Total weight of wheel, tire, foam, and lead:
Weights mounted on rig:
After doing all these modifications, I took the rig out to the garage and tried all my "test" lines again. This time I am happy to say the knuckle weights DO improve performance. I now have the additional wheel speed gained by removing rotating mass from the wheels, and by lowering the weight even more, I was able to increase my vertical climb by 1 degree, and can now climb a 62* angle. I also increased the sidehilling rollover by 1* to 53*. I still have a small loss of traction in the front wheels, but it is very minimal, and I now feel that the benefits outweigh this. Traction has improved enough to be able to pull all the lines that I was not able to do with just the knuckle weights. Here is a picture of the 62* climb (obviously this is a poser shot with my son holding the phone, but I was able to climb this multiple times).
Soooooo, final analysis is this:
Yes, the knuckle weights DO give an advantage, even to my rig. I just had to modify the pee out of them to get them to do it. :mrgreen:
Thanks Kratos! "thumbsup"
Anyway, after thinking about the whole knuckle weight situation, I decided to take Kratos' advice:
I decided to remove as much of the weight as possible from above the axle line, and any remaining weight would be removed from the inner face of the knuckle weights, leaving the bulk of the weight at the farthest outward point possible. For this reason I decided to also keep my washer weights I had mounted to the outer surface, but I trimmed them to keep the weight below the axle line also. The resulting weights look like this:
Weight after modifications (down from 2.9 ounces):
I added roughly 1 1/2 ounces of lead to each wheel, hammered out to approximately 1mm thickness:
Total weight of wheel, tire, foam, and lead:
Weights mounted on rig:
After doing all these modifications, I took the rig out to the garage and tried all my "test" lines again. This time I am happy to say the knuckle weights DO improve performance. I now have the additional wheel speed gained by removing rotating mass from the wheels, and by lowering the weight even more, I was able to increase my vertical climb by 1 degree, and can now climb a 62* angle. I also increased the sidehilling rollover by 1* to 53*. I still have a small loss of traction in the front wheels, but it is very minimal, and I now feel that the benefits outweigh this. Traction has improved enough to be able to pull all the lines that I was not able to do with just the knuckle weights. Here is a picture of the 62* climb (obviously this is a poser shot with my son holding the phone, but I was able to climb this multiple times).
Soooooo, final analysis is this:
Yes, the knuckle weights DO give an advantage, even to my rig. I just had to modify the pee out of them to get them to do it. :mrgreen:
Thanks Kratos! "thumbsup"
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99xjlove
Quarry Creeper
Nice work sir! This is deffinately going to give you even more of an edge (like you need it)! Are you running the Dlux conversion mounts for the LCC mod?
papabash
I wanna be Dave
Hey, if I weren't so old, I'd be offended! :mrgreen:
