2013 Rules

[T3rry]

When you only answer half the questions on a test would you consider it completed?







Only if you consider going half way through a gate to be completed.


For the sake of argument lets agree to disagree. Would this make you happy?



1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate, and the vehicle has completely left the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)

no point in getting all defensive,,, i would just like to know, in that scenario, if the driver drives out sideways, straddling the marker.. at what point has he "left" / "Completed" the gate by your definition?


It seems to me the definitions of "progress" "cleared/uncleared" and "completed" need better definition and the points reward need to be clarified... i was under the assumption the points we rewarded for "progress" as defined.. not "completon" which seems undefined.

 

[Hardline]

Well which is it? You want to agree to disagree or you want to clarify the rules? If you don't think there's a wording problem, don't change anything. Personally, I think that new wording gets it done.

For the sake of argument lets agree to disagree. Would this make you happy?


1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate, and the vehicle has completely left the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)

 

[Fishmaxx]

no point in getting all defensive,,, i would just like to know, in that scenario, if the driver drives out sideways, straddling the marker.. at what point has he "left" / "Completed" the gate by your definition?


It seems to me the definitions of "progress" "cleared/uncleared" and "completed" need better definition and the points reward need to be clarified... i was under the assumption the points we rewarded for "progress" as defined.. not "completon" which seems undefined.

Illustration A shows a truck in which a vehicle has completed a gate without penalty. Thus it has completed it and completely left the gate. I can't make it any clearer than that. Feel free to submit clearer definitions, and will have them submitted to Rules Committee;-).

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)

 

[T3rry]

Illustration A shows a truck in which a vehicle has completed a gate without penalty. Thus it has completed it and completely left the gate. I can't make it any clearer than that. Feel free to submit clearer definitions, and will have them submitted to Rules Committee;-).

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)

I understand that, what i don't understand is at what point a gate is considered "completed" if the driver does not get all 4 tires though clean, and opts to straddle the gate in a sideways movement...

The hilighted area rule clearly states "without gate penalty", i never said "without penalty" at any point, i understand there would be a penalty, but dont under stand a what point the progress would be awarded as the truck obviously met the criteria of "progress"

like if i drive sideways out of the pic i previously mentioned, that gate completed, with gate penalty and progress, but at what point? when my front axle is over the ball? chassis over the ball? rear axle over the ball? some imaginary line that goes sideways out of the ball that is based on the angle of the axle...?

at what point would you consider the gate "completed" both with progress, and gate penalty, in the example in the rules? i really don't see how hard this question is to answer, you say the gate must be completed to finish the course/gate, but you cant tell me at what point the gate is considered completed in this situation.


I am bringing this up to try to avoid future confusion, if you don't appreciate the constructive criticism of the rules, let me know and i'll drop it.. i am not trying to clarify this for my benefit, but for everybody so it's more black and white, less grey.

 

[PaloAltoK5]

I understand that, what i don't understand is at what point a gate is considered "completed" if the driver does not get all 4 wires though clean, and opts to straddle the gate in a sideways movement...

like if i drive sideways out of the pic i previously mentioned, is that gate completed, with gate penalty and progress, when my front axle is over the ball? chassis over the ball? rear axle over the ball? some imaginary line that goes sideways out of the ball that is based on the angle of the axle...?

at what point would you consider the gate "completed" both with progress, and gate penalty, in the example in the rules? i really don't see how hard this question is to answer, you say the gate must be completed to finish the course/gate, but you cant tell me at what point the gate is considered completed in this situation.


I am bringing this up to try to avoid future confusion, if you don't appreciate the constructive criticism of the rules, let me know and i'll drop it.. i am not trying to clarify this for my benefit, but for everybody so it's more black and white, less grey.

Really, the rule states it pretty clearly: To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A).

As illustrated for a gate to be cleared, the outermost edge of the tire must pass beyond the outermost edge of the gate marker, and here is the kicker, all 4 tires must pass the gate markers as written in the rule, for progress to actually be awarded. So, sitting in the gate with 2 tires through is good for progress, but only awarded when all 4 tires have passed the plane of the gate.

So, in your example, if they sit there as is, no progress, nothing is awarded until the vehicle exits the gate completely. "thumbsup"

 

[T3rry]

Ugh. nevermind.

 

[Hardline]

Really, the rule states it pretty clearly: To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A).

As illustrated for a gate to be cleared, the outermost edge of the tire must pass beyond the outermost edge of the gate marker, and here is the kicker, all 4 tires must pass the gate markers as written in the rule, for progress to actually be awarded. So, sitting in the gate with 2 tires through is good for progress, but only awarded when all 4 tires have passed the plane of the gate.

So, in your example, if they sit there as is, no progress, nothing is awarded until the vehicle exits the gate completely. "thumbsup"

How on earth can you correctly quote the rule and then totally mis-state what you just quoted? "To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty..." We're not talking about receiving a bonus without penalty. We're talking about progress with penalty. Nowhere does it say you must complete the gate to get progress with penalty. If you're still sitting in the gate, two tires thru, when the time expires, you've met the specific wording: "Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate." What part of that sentence did the car in the sketch not comply with? "Completely through the gate" is referring to the two tires, not the car.

 

[PaloAltoK5]

How on earth can you correctly quote the rule and then totally mis-state what you just quoted? "To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty..." We're not talking about receiving a bonus without penalty. We're talking about progress with penalty. Nowhere does it say you must complete the gate to get progress with penalty. If you're still sitting in the gate, two tires thru, when the time expires, you've met the specific wording: "Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate." What part of that sentence did the car in the sketch not comply with? "Completely through the gate" is referring to the two tires, not the car.

Smh, my point was this, no progress is awarded until the vehicle exits the gate, and they are not eligible to receive progress points unless two tires from each wheel pass the the plane if the gate successfully in the intended direction.

Clean gate = 4 tires though clean and exit gate plane

Progress with penalty = 1 tire from each axle through the intended direction and exit gate plane with all 4 wheels, see the illustration above.



Sent from Tapatalk

 

[Olle P]

The tricky thing here is that there are two rule paragraphs that, if read literally, contradict each other. Contradictions highlighted:

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared...

7.2.1 - A gate is considered cleared when at least one front and one rear wheel passes between the two gate markers, and all four tires are past the gate in the intended direction of the gate.

7.2.6 - If one wheel from the front axle and one wheel from the rear axle passes between the two gate markers, that gate is considered a cleared gate. ... (No mentioning that the rest of the vehicle must get through!)

So, reading this it seems like 7.2.6 is a sub-part of 7.2.1, indicating that the gate is considered cleared even BEFORE the last wheel has a chance to enter the gate!
Obviously not the intention of the rule, and 7.2.6 can be removed because it's covered by 7.2.1.

By 7.2.1 I consider this to be a correct interpretation:

 

[P3NGU1N]

But that situation wouldn't be on a first attempt if you were to turn right for this 'no progress, no penalty'.

It would also be a progress either way because 1 tire from each axle went through and a gate penalty due to the straddle of the gate.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

A tire from each axle went between the gates in the intended direction. Once the tires are clear of the gate, it's scored as Gate, then Progress, regardless of which direction you turn after exiting the gate.

You're trying to overthink this.

 

[Curcal]

7.2.1 - A gate is considered cleared when at least one front and one rear wheel passes between the two gate markers, and all four tires are past the gate in the intended direction of the gate.

7.2.6 - If one wheel from the front axle and one wheel from the rear axle passes between the two gate markers, that gate is considered a cleared gate. ... (No mentioning that the rest of the vehicle must get through!)]

The rules dont contradict each other. 7.2.1 the word past makes all the difference.

in the picture only two tires are past the gate.

this car is half way progressed. to get progress with a gate the car must turn in the intended gate direction. and drive all four tires past the gate.

The gate is cleared (with out penalty) if all four tires pass through the gates.

IMO there's another issue in your picture.
turning down away from making progress in your picture would only result in gate penalty if the gate was touched. Gates penalties are given if the gate is touched or if during progress all four tires do not progress through the gate.

 

[Curcal]

from that picture I would call that a progress, no penalty until driver drives out over a gate, unless somehow driver could roll/flip his rig (without touching it)
Progress= no re-attempt.

Thats the thing tho in the pic its not progress
Driver has enough tires through, but progress not counted till all tires are past the gate

 

[tapped-out]

Thats the thing tho in the pic its not progress
Driver has enough tires through, but progress not counted till all tires are past the gate

Lol... you got that quote before I deleted that post... after re-reading rules I agree..But could gate be re-attempted?

 

[EvilTwin v2]

You guys are over thinking "intended direction". If you enter the gate in the opposite direction (the truck passes through the gates from the wrong way, you stop time and reposition to the last cleared gate.

When a tire from each axle enters and proceeds through in the intended direction, it doesn't matter which direction you drive as you exit the gate.

 

[T3rry]

So after taking a day to think about it and re-read all the info provided here, this is a wording/terminology issue...

the -2 points, is NOT awarded for "Progression" of the gate, it's awarded for "completion" of the gate, of which "progression" is a prerequisite.

the way i understand it
the points should be awarded for "Completion" which includes a "progression" (and may or may not include a gate penalty) but also requires that the truck exit the gate, which requires that the truck no longer be between, or straddling either of the gate markers for that gate...

Correct?

 

[EvilTwin v2]

So after taking a day to think about it and re-read all the info provided here, this is a wording/terminology issue...

the -2 points, is NOT awarded for "Progression" of the gate, it's awarded for "completion" of the gate, of which "progression" is a prerequisite.

the way i understand it
the points should be awarded for "Completion" which includes a "progression" (and may or may not include a gate penalty) but also requires that the truck exit the gate, which requires that the truck no longer be between, or straddling either of the gate markers for that gate...

Correct?

Stop over thinking it and trying to knit pick the exact definition of every single word.

 

[JeremyH]

Stop over thinking it and trying to knit pick the exact definition of every single word.

Cut him some slack....he's Canadian....English is probably not his first language.

 

[T3rry]

Stop over thinking it and trying to knit pick the exact definition of every single word.

sorry, i didn't realize trying to make things understandable was considered nitpicking...

Plain and simple fact is, you are not being awarded for progression, at least not until the gate is "completed" so why call it a progression point when you don't get it until you completed the gate, the definition is which, is not even in the rules? so people get to guess... what's the point of rules if they're not explicit and understandable?...

I know i'm not in the cool kids club so it's cool to rag on me.. sorry for trying to make things better for everybody by having rules, and in this case a judging test, which actually makes sense...

i'll shut up now... with support like this in this hobby, it's no wonder it's dying.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

sorry, i didn't realize trying to make things understandable was considered nitpicking...

Plain and simple fact is, you are not being awarded for progression, at least not until the gate is "completed" so why call it a progression point when you don't get it until you completed the gate, the definition is which, is not even in the rules? so people get to guess... what's the point of rules if they're not explicit and understandable?...

I know i'm not in the cool kids club so it's cool to rag on me.. sorry for trying to make things better for everybody by having rules, and in this case a judging test, which actually makes sense...

i'll shut up now... with support like this in this hobby, it's no wonder it's dying.

Stop whining that you're the victim in this. You've asked basically the same question over and over. It's been explained that Progress is when one front and one rear tire have passed completely through the gate, and now you're trying to argue the "Completion" of a gate. At no point was the word "Completion" mentioned in Fish's explanation to you. He defined Progress as it relates to our hobby. You've argued and argued the point. I'm really not sure if you don't understand what everybody is trying to explain to you or if you're trying to find a loophole in the rules. Regardless, please go back and read very carefully. If you don't understand, ask us to clarify what it is that you don't understand, but stop trying to put extra words into the rules that aren't there.