RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

[Erik D_lux]

Ah... yes... our favorite thread.

Judges are THE most important part of any comp and they are often looked over or not compensated enough IMO. I wanted to change that this year for this comp so I have come up with a new idea.

As many already know, there will be ZERO profit taken from this comp. If there is a fee, it is to cover necessary costs. This year, I would like to compensate the judges with cash for their efforts. This compensation will come directly from the competitor’s entrance fee.

The thing I think I like most about this idea is that the comp can be free as long as "we" help out and if judges were to judge for "free” the more expensive everybody decides to make judging, the more expensive the comp will be. So, YOU are in direct control of the cost of this comp. If it’s too expensive, YOU are the one that took part in making it that way.

2.2S
1. John/Sumquak
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

2.2P
1.John/Sumquack $200
2.Curt/Curcal $200
3.Dan/KingGee $200
4.KJ/Nappadog $200
5.
6.
7.
8.

Super
1. Dlux $Free
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

 

[Erik D_lux]

I wanted to put this in a new section. You will need to pay attention as it might get confusing.

Here is the way judging compensation and entrance costs will work:
We will need 16 judges that will cover 8 courses. This is for 2.2 Pro only.
I need everybody to post up what they think it will be worth for them to judge. If you are willing to judge for free, post that up. If you won’t do it for under $1000, then post that up.

If there are say 8 people that are willing to judge for free and say 8 that are willing to judge for $1000, then ALL judges get paid that $1000. All judges will get paid the same amount no matter how much they say they would do it for. We are going to take the judges that are willing to do it for the least amount of money.

Now, it gets a bit more involved. The judges also will get a refund for their entrance fee after the day is done and they have judged. So, roll that cost into what you are already making for the day.
We will base the cost of judge’s compensation on the amount of drivers. In other words, we will base the entrance fee as close as we can to compensation but if there ends up being less than anticipated drivers, you get paid less (doing less work), if there are more drivers than anticipated, you will get paid more (for doing more work). At the end of the day, we will take the total amount that came in for the comp, take our cut for what costs need to be covered and then whatever is left over will get divided by the 16 judges.
An example:
16 judges all want $250
We estimate 50 paying drivers
16 x $250 = $4000
$4000/50people = $80 per person for an entrance fee
So, in the above example, each judge would get $250 PLUS the $80 back for their entrance fee or they would get $330 back at the end of the comp.

Again, this is going to fluctuate a bit and if you ask for $250 for the day, you may get more, you may get less, it just depends on how many people show up.

I hope this is not too confusing. Please post up with how much you’re willing to judge for and let me know if you have any questions. Hopefully this will be a smooth and rewarding way to get judges in the future.

If it were $250, that would mean $330 for a days work! That’s great money! Who wants it?

 

[Erik D_lux]

BTW, the compensation applies to 2.2P only. We are still working some things out to benefit the 2.2S and Super judges. If you want to judge either of those classes, please put that in here too.

 

[sumquak]

i'm in, 2.2S and 2.2P free/volunteer, ON COURSE I BUILD only.

$4.00/driver on any other course.

 

[Erik D_lux]

i'm in, 2.2S and 2.2P free/volunteer, ON COURSE I BUILD only.

$4.00/driver on any other course.

Thanks John!

I am going to put you down for $200 a day, which would work out to be $4 per driver if 50 show up. This is just to get the ball rolling. We will try to let you judge your own course and pay you the maximum that any judge gets.

 

[Curcal]

I love this idea but my mind is working from a different angle. Im considering what i would be willing to pay for someone to judge me on a course. Ive judged many for free and at nats 2013 i paid to judge all day.... go figure on that one.......

That said Id be willing to pay $5 for every course I drove. If that $ went to the judge thats incredibly awesome! With an 8 course day it would cost me $40. Thats amazing!

There has only been one major comp ever which was cheaper than that for an entry fee... (BotW 2012) and I judged then too. Hahaha.

Ok long winded post over.

All things being as they are i would judge for $4 dollars for each driver I judged through my course. The remaining $1 could be used to cover comp costs (location, food/water, gates/boundries/chalk)

 

[Curcal]

Even if I judge I'd be willing to pay for my fellow judges to score me on the courses I run. So my $40 bucks would go to someone who deserved it. I'd make my "money" back by judging the judges too.

The one problem I see with just paying a flat amount to every judge is there are times where one judge will carry more weight than the other. At Nats 2013 there were 3 judges on course.... one of my fellow judges disappeared to fix his broken rig, and run all the other courses. By the time he got back, almost all of the drivers had been to and through my course. He definitely didn't carry his weight..... being paid per driver. Judges would be more willing to carry their own load or compensated extra for picking up someone else's slack.

The one issue I see with this is that with this set up, we could end up with people carrying the course by themselves again.... but they'd get paid well to do so.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Thanks Curt! I got you down.

You covered another aspect of this and that is that all judges will need to pay the same as everybody else before the comp. Only after the comp will they get their compensation. So, if they do screw around, there is a possibility that they wont get paid fully and if you are one of the types that say you will judge but end up flaking out, you wont get paid at all.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Am I the only one who thinks $200 is an outrageous amount of money to make to judge a comp for one day?! Am I also the only one who thinks its totally worth it?

Say you judged for 8 hours. Thats about $33 an hour after you get your money back from paying up front!

At $200 per judge, we are only looking at approx $64 per person for the entire comp.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

I always thought $100 per day was reachable, but not enough. Very glad to see you taking a forward approach to judge compensation so it is the first consideration!

 

[Curcal]

I've been looking at these numbers and wondering why we are coming up with different costs for driver entry.

If I say I want $4 per driver I judge and I judge 50 drivers that = $200

If we run 8 courses and have 16 judges to cover those 8 courses I wont judge all the drivers who show up... at best I judge 25 of the 50 drivers. Meaning my judging earns me $100.

then the $ I paid for entry gets refunded back to me making it a wash. take home is $100.
If more than 50 drivers show I get paid more because I worked harder.

At a $64 dollar entry as a driver I'm paying $8 per course. And the judge is earning all $8. or mathematically splitting my "course fee" between the two judges covering my course, but why would I give $4 to someone who did nothing for me.

IMO $8 per course is steep..... I understand I've paid more in the past, but we're looking at this comp in a different light than the ones that have come before.

Just some thoughts....

To track how many drivers were judged by each individual is using the master score sheets for each judge signed by judge and driver.

 

[Erik D_lux]

I think its because youre confusing the situation and so am I. LOL.

$200 based on 50 drivers but youre right, you might only judge 25 of those.

No matter what, we want 16 judges. If all 16 want $200, thats $3200. $3200/50 paid drivers =$64 per driver.

Judges would get the $200 for the day and their $64 so you would get $264 theoretically if it all worked out.

Yes, that could be $264 for judging just 25 people.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Oh, and if youre only running 2.2p, then yes, its $8 per course or $64 using that example. BUT, if you run super, 2.2S or both, now you just brought that cost way down.

 

[Curcal]

So really... My number would be closer to $100 to judge the comp..... but $64 to run at least two classes is an absolute steal! In comparison to previous years.

Which again what about those who judge on 2.2s and Super day do they get a cut in the pay? I know the guys that judged 2.2s at worlds last year had a driver field almost as big as 2.2 pro.....

Complicated stuff..... another reason I like the pay per course model. Full comp per day fee paid prior to event.
Maybe charge less for smaller classes.
$2-3 for 2.2s
$4-5 for 2.2pro
$1-2 for Super

So take Donny for example he and spencer will run all three classes 8 courses per day at maximun charge for 1 driver.
$24 for Friday
$40 for Saturday
$16 for Sunday
That's $80 for the entire weekend! That's a freaking steal too!

 

[Erik D_lux]

Well, as judges, thats why I want you to tell me how much you would charge to stand on the rocks all day, not how much to judge per person.

Would you rather stand on the rocks for 8hrs, judge 2 people for $8 or stand on the rocks for 8 hrs, judge 2 people for $200?

Basically, tell me what your day is worth.

Right now, we are working on 2.2S and Super judges. I would love if this worked out and we could do the same for those classes. We need to see how this goes first. Worst case, we were going to give judges a bunch of raffle tickets for the goods that the sponsors sent in, which could be as good or better than the 2.2P class pay out.

 

[Curcal]

^very true


So if we had fields of 35 Sporty Drivers, 50 Pro, and 14 Supers. The judges pool would equal
$840 for Friday
$2000 for Saturday
$224 for Sunday

Depending upon number of Judges each day that pot gets split equally.

 

[Curcal]

IMO Judging or not we're all on the rocks for 8ish hours, but if I pick up a clip board and walk the same course over and over it becomes work..... By no means am I complaining.... (I think this BotW is probably the comp I slacked off the most ever when it came to judging and I think I judged a little less than half the field for one course.)

I'm just trying to provide an incentive to those who are reluctant to chip in and help (I know you are too), even though it might affect their day and overall finishing results.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Yep, totally do able for all 3 classes IMO.

I just worry that many wouldn't even judge if it meant $1000 per day. Funny thing is, they will go home to their $20/hr job to make $160 a day before taxes.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

I was also thinking that it would be good to track who scores who, or at least how many who's.



I would also like to point out that the rules do allow self scoring in groups with secret marshalls in groups and walking around. Play it like golf with everybody watching. If there is a shootout, judges can be there.

 

[Curcal]

Man we need this thread way more out in the open! It would be interesting to see what others think their day is worth....
We'd have to wait to hear back from Sumquak, but I think he was looking at around $100 dollars too... because his thinking was along the same lines as mine, but you never know.