AR44 axles

[borlo]

Hey all,

I have gradually upgraded my Element Enduro axles with brass link mounts, aluminum C-hubs, and brass knuckles.

I think I am beginning to understand torque twist, as the other day when climbing a very steep sandstone slab one of my front wheels was coming up off the ground. I have read that the high pinion design of the AR44 axles can help combat this, but I don't really want to start over with adding weight to new axles (there has to be a limit somewhere on spending money on parts only to put them away in the spares box).

My question is if anybody knows if the link mounts, C-hubs, and knuckles are cross-compatible between the Enduro and AR44 axles?

Thanks,
EB

 

[King Dork]

I’m not any type of mechanical engineer, but my UMG10 with AR44 high pinion axles has noticeably more torque twist than my Element RC Gatekeeper. I have heard arguments claiming otherwise but never heard anything convincing. Portal axles reduce torque twist.

 

[OSRC]

My question is if anybody knows if the link mounts, C-hubs, and knuckles are cross-compatible between the Enduro and AR44 axles?

Nope.

The "high pinion" on the AR44 is more moving the drive shaft up higher for more clearance. It has a negligible effect on TT - I'm not clear why this myth is roaming the forums. Link/shock tuning has a far greater effect, and the Enduro is well known for it's super soft suspension which can exaggerate TT.

 

[MOguy]

I have low pinion on an a couple old axials and some Enduro axles on a comp build and they have more TT than the AR44s.

You can set it so it is less noticeable but if you have a fast enough buggy or can tune your RC to climb steep you will notice.

The Enduro axles will seem lighter and more responsive but in the right/wrong situation they will have more torque twist. I tiwll get over mild obstacles quicker but when it gets steep the front end (esp front passenger tire) will lift easier.

My question to those that don't agree, Did you not notice the difference when you changed from your Enduro Axles to AR44s?

 

[MOguy]

Nope.

The "high pinion" on the AR44 is more moving the drive shaft up higher for more clearance. It has a negligible effect on TT - I'm not clear why this myth is roaming the forums. Link/shock tuning has a far greater effect, and the Enduro is well known for it's super soft suspension which can exaggerate TT.

Have you tried swapping the Enduro axle for an AR44?

 

[MOguy]

I’m not any type of mechanical engineer, but my UMG10 with AR44 high pinion axles has noticeably more torque twist than my Element RC Gatekeeper. I have heard arguments claiming otherwise but never heard anything convincing. Portal axles reduce torque twist.

Swap axles in your gate keeper. they are a direct bolt on. It shouldn't take more than 10-20 minutes, if that. Then accelerate hard and climb something steep. Watch you front passenger tire.

 

[HumboldtEF]

I think I am beginning to understand torque twist, as the other day when climbing a very steep sandstone slab one of my front wheels was coming up off the ground. I have read that the high pinion design of the AR44 axles can help combat this

All you should need is some stiffer springs in the rear, if they're super soft the minor amount of TT will be accentuated. The stiffer they (the rear) are the more they can resist TT.


MOguy this isnt the first time you've falsely claimed the pinion location effects torque twist. Its all in the gearing not gear placement.

Have a look through this thread here for some insight into why you may be wrong (linked to specific post): http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/general-crawlers/472065-another-4-link-thread.html#post4572155

 

[borlo]

Ha ha OK thanks guys. Didn't mean to stir the pot but I appreciate the replies.

I will stay with the Enduro axles and not overthink things, which is a real challenge for me. I may try stiffer springs, or not. I'll likely not switch to portals on this rig since I have a pretty capable TRX4 as well. That and the fact that whenever I am crawling with my wife she likes to run the Enduro since I have a Toyota body on it so I don't get to use it as much as I like...

Sometimes I think I need to change things to occupy my mind and distract me from the "real" world, which I guess is the point of this endeavor.

 

[MOguy]

All you should need is some stiffer springs in the rear, if they're super soft the minor amount of TT will be accentuated. The stiffer they (the rear) are the more they can resist TT.


MOguy this isnt the first time you've falsely claimed the pinion location effects torque twist. Its all in the gearing not gear placement.

Have a look through this thread here for some insight into why you may be wrong (linked to specific post): http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/general-crawlers/472065-another-4-link-thread.html#post4572155

You are really recommending stiffer springs for a crawler to cover up torque twist?

You can also add preload to your rear right shock and it will cover up top twist, that is what I do on my wrath 2.2 but it sucks for a crawler.

 

[soze]

Ha ha OK thanks guys. Didn't mean to stir the pot but I appreciate the replies.

I will stay with the Enduro axles and not overthink things, which is a real challenge for me. I may try stiffer springs, or not. I'll likely not switch to portals on this rig since I have a pretty capable TRX4 as well. That and the fact that whenever I am crawling with my wife she likes to run the Enduro since I have a Toyota body on it so I don't get to use it as much as I like...

Sometimes I think I need to change things to occupy my mind and distract me from the "real" world, which I guess is the point of this endeavor.

The Enduro is quite capable without portals, there's no need for it.

Try stock springs in the front and the blue springs in the rear. I'm also using like 40 or 50wt oil, I forget which.

Get some weight on the front axle, and whatever tires/foams that work for your location and you'll be trucking up stuff.

 

[HumboldtEF]

You are really recommending stiffer springs for a crawler to cover up torque twist?

Yes, I dont know what springs he's using now, As I said "If you're using super soft springs"
I suggest you try the green enduro springs in the rear MOguy, they're as soft as those get and also allow torque twist to fully compress the right rear way too easily. Stiff bad soft good is not how this works, play around with different spring rates to find a happy medium.

I found the white or grey springs are good in the rear for my non IFS Enduro.

 

[MOguy]

Yes, I dont know what springs he's using now, As I said "If you're using super soft springs"
I suggest you try the green enduro springs in the rear MOguy, they're as soft as those get and also allow torque twist to fully compress the right rear way too easily. Stiff bad soft good is not how this works, play around with different spring rates to find a happy medium.

I found the white or grey springs are good in the rear for my non IFS Enduro.

I like the TRX shocks, heavy oil and soft springs.

 

[HumboldtEF]

I like the TRX shocks, heavy oil and soft springs.

Whats the shock oil weight you use?

Just curious because the last set of TRX4 shocks I tried thicker oil on (maybe 45 or 35wt) but I found with the small piston size that thicker oils reacted totally different to what I'm used to. They were FAR stiffer than I had wanted. I ended up working my way down and down until I got to 15 wt. It kind of left me shocked that the piston size had that effect, that was new to me.

 

[MOguy]

Whats the shock oil weight you use?



Just curious because the last set of TRX4 shocks I tried thicker oil on (maybe 45 or 35wt) but I found that with the small piston size thicker oils reacted totally different to what I'm used to and they were FAR stiffer than I wanted. I ended up working my way down and down until I got to 15 wt. It kind of left me shocked that the piston size had that effect, that was new to me.

I think it is 65 in my C1 Enduro and 2k in my C3.

 

[MOguy]

All you should need is some stiffer springs in the rear, if they're super soft the minor amount of TT will be accentuated. The stiffer they (the rear) are the more they can resist TT.


MOguy this isnt the first time you've falsely claimed the pinion location effects torque twist. Its all in the gearing not gear placement.

Have a look through this thread here for some insight into why you may be wrong (linked to specific post): http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/general-crawlers/472065-another-4-link-thread.html#post4572155

I just made three videos. One is a mostly stock trx4 sport (No OD or UD), another is a corrupt carbon build with ar44s, and the third is a Brazin build with a tgh 2 low trans. It has the most weight up front and the most overdrive and even then it cannot climb as well as the other two. In the video you can see how the Enduro axles don not stay planted.

It took me a while to figure this out, but I still haven't learned to post videos here. I would love to send you these videos so you can see this for yourself. It would be great if you can post them too so others could see this. i would love to hear your opinion on the videos.

 

[HumboldtEF]

I just made three videos. One is a mostly stock trx4 sport (No OD or UD), another is a corrupt carbon build with ar44s, and the third is a Brazin build with a tgh 2 low trans. It has the most weight up front and the most overdrive and even then it cannot climb as well as the other two. In the video you can see how the Enduro axles don not stay planted.

It took me a while to figure this out, but I still haven't learned to post videos here. I would love to send you these videos so you can see this for yourself. It would be great if you can post them too so others could see this. i would love to hear your opinion on the videos.

Okay cool, if you want to truly compare these axles do it on 1 single rig with the only variable being the axles themselves. Make sure whatever weight 1 set of axles has in the way of C-hub or knuckles ect. the other set also has. If you're just comparing two or three different builds this will be fairly meaningless.

 

[Maxxamillion]

Hey all,

I have gradually upgraded my Element Enduro axles with brass link mounts, aluminum C-hubs, and brass knuckles.

I think I am beginning to understand torque twist, as the other day when climbing a very steep sandstone slab one of my front wheels was coming up off the ground. I have read that the high pinion design of the AR44 axles can help combat this, but I don't really want to start over with adding weight to new axles (there has to be a limit somewhere on spending money on parts only to put them away in the spares box).

Thanks,
EB

I hear you on tricking out the Enduro axles... I have also. Lots of brass.

I got caught up in the swap to 44's mindset, and have 44's on my Enduro now (I was sitting on brand new 44's). There is very little difference if any IMO. I have had the most success with TT and the chassis leaning to the right (even on flat ground) by adding preload on the stock Enduro shocks.
So my opinion is to tune your shocks first, and run it lower & slightly stiffer.
My Enduro w/44's lasted one battery before the infamous tic tic tic cropped up. Gotta pull it all apart again.

 

[MOguy]

Okay cool, if you want to truly compare these axles do it on 1 single rig with the only variable being the axles themselves. Make sure whatever weight 1 set of axles has in the way of C-hub or knuckles ect. the other set also has. If you're just comparing two or three different builds this will be fairly meaningless.

The Enduro are on a good build, the TRX is basically stock. I will send you the videos if you want.

I am not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, just sharing my experience.

 

[HumboldtEF]

The Enduro are on a good build, the TRX is basically stock. I will send you the videos if you want.

I am not trying to hurt anybody's feelings, just sharing my experience.

I'm interested to hear your opinion. I'm only voicing the opposite opinion because you are suggesting an expensive upgrade to fix something with no evidence to say it fixes anything. I dont want anyone to end up spending money based on that. But again I do want to know what you come up with.


If you have a Youtube account to watch videos you can upload to it. If you're not into having videos or a channel you could upload as a unlisted video (not private) then share the link to allow us to watch.

 

[MOguy]

I'm interested to hear your opinion. I'm only voicing the opposite opinion because you are suggesting an expensive upgrade to fix something with no evidence to say it fixes anything. I dont want anyone to end up spending money based on that. But again I do want to know what you come up with.


If you have a Youtube account to watch videos you can upload to it. If you're not into having videos or a channel you could upload as a unlisted video (not private) then share the link to allow us to watch.

You can get a set of 3 piece AR44s for less than some ESCs, esp if you shop, trade, buy used...

My issue with you tube is I live very rural. I have Hughes net, uploading a video isn't happening. On my way home I pass through good cell signal and could messenger somebody the videos. My work computer won't allow you tube.